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View Full Version : I've got an original 1911 here....PICTS......

HaveBlue83
7th July 2006, 01:12
My first post BTW.....I own a New 1911-A1 Sprinfiedld Armory .45, and I know about weapon history. I am in the Army currently, and I fix weapons. Aust a quick background...


OK, here's the story.....

My buddies Grandfather was in a war WW2 I guess, and had worked for the Michigan State HW patrol for years......he had 6 Colt commemerative engraved Michigan SHWP .45's, and an original Colt 1911. His grandson (my friend) wanted a .45, and his GF siad "do you want one to shoot, or to collect?"....he said "to shoot", and he GAVE him THIS:

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9582/img35279nv.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img279.imageshack.us/img279/9222/img35289ni.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4503/img35299xz.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/1439/img35339ls.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/8374/img35350hg.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/5681/img35373we.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/5840/sercovered23mt.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4255/img35382hj.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/7033/img35392wb.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

the blueing is a LITTLE thin around the front of the frame, but it's amazin for it's vintage.


I believe the slide and frame are matching.....no reason to suspect this....

I x'ed out the last 2 of the ser. # for security on here, I just want to be safe ;)

Let me know what you think....

I will let him know about the Colt history certificate...taht should be interesting to see......
CWG
7th July 2006, 08:36
whew :D nice
Hawkmoon
7th July 2006, 09:10
That's a fairly early one, I think, and looks very nice. It's a WW1 model, not a WW2 M1911A1 version. By all means he should shoot it enough to be sure it functions, but beyond that I don't think he should shoot it a lot. The steel in the older ones wasn't as good as what modern pistols are made of. It would be a shame to ruin an authentic piece of history (which also has some real monetary value) by shooting it heavily and breaking it.
HaveBlue83
7th July 2006, 10:24
yeah, we WILL be shooting it......I told him it's between $1-2,000 in price, just to give him an idea on it's worth. I figured it was PRE-WW2, but I wasn't sure if it was WW1 range or not. Thanks.

I just told him, and he said "SWEET!" hehe.....
Hawkmoon
7th July 2006, 12:57
It doesn't have the "scallop" cuts behind the trigger, so it's not an A1. According to the appendix in Clawson, that serial number was manufactured by Colt in 1918. I very strongly urge your friend to NOT make that pistol a "shooter" (meaning a gun that will be shot a lot). And definitely he should not run any "hot" loads or +P ammo through it. On the older 1911s, rather than heat treat the entire slide they only heat treated the muzzle end and the area around the slide stop notch. It would be a real shame to crack the slide on that pistol by shooting it too much, because even if you could find a correct replacement, it would never be original again and the value of the gun would be greatly diminished.

It is, of course, his gun ... to preserve or to destroy as he wishes. I think it would be best to keep that one safe and maybe run a couple of magazines through it every 4th of July or something, but spend $300 or $350 on an RIA if he wants a "shooter." As heretical as it sounds, I think if it were mine I would field strip it, clean and oil it, and put it away without even trying it. But ... I have a "shooter."
HaveBlue83
7th July 2006, 13:40
he wants to shoot it, as do I...I think this will be a "shoot it every once in awhile" gun.....I have a shotgun like this, and I know what you mean......it's a family Heirloom to him as well.

I will DEF. let him know it ;)
dakota1911
7th July 2006, 16:07
If it was me, once it was checked by a good gunsmith and I put new springs in it (save the old springs), then I would probably work up some mild handloads and at least shoot a couple of mags through it just to see how it would work. Yes, a couple mags every 4th of July would be about right. Then again, you might want to have it appraised before doing that.
Hersh
7th July 2006, 18:56
When I see a pistol of that vintage I always wonder, "What if it could talk?" I'll bet it could tell us some interesting stories!

Hersh
ArmscorBA
7th July 2006, 19:03
Put it in the safe and see what happens in 20 yrs! :)
Ivan
HaveBlue83
7th July 2006, 19:15
as always, a rifle/pistol/shotgun has one main purpose...to be shot.....so it will be....

I wonder where it has been, who has shot it, and if it ever went overseas to a warzone......

I just hope it's owner takes good care of it....I will try to look after it as well as I can.

We may go and shoot it tomorrow.....I'll post with the results if we do.

I use remington 230GR ball ammo....so everything should be good to go.

P.S. I lightly oiled it throughout today, and wiped it clean. I respect this weapon, so It will be handled carefully.
Johnny Peppers
7th July 2006, 20:10
Model 1911's in that condition rarely surface. It would be a shame to see it turned into a shooter, as that has happened to enough of the 1911's that still exist. They were made to be carried in a rough leather holster, but a pistol rug would be much easier on the finish.
qwixdraw
8th July 2006, 02:44
"The steel in the older ones wasn't as good as what modern pistols are made of"
__________________________________________________________________

I curious as to how you came to the conclusion the steel in the early 1911's is inferior. Seems the Colt passed the 6000 round endurance test with flying colors. If the steel was so bad wouldn't it have reared it's ugly head?
My carry weapon for going on eight years is , No. 86924. I shoot it regular with hot hand load JHP's, factory Federal FMJ 230 grain. 50 to 100 rounds a trip.
Before me, my Daddy shot well into the thousands, hand loads with bullets molded from old tire weights, and factory loads, surplus military rounds. Together we shot it a lot, starting from 1962 until present. It is always clean and lubricated. Beautiful mirror nickel finish. No cracks in it, and still groups 3.5" at 25 yards. I have never seen a cracked slide from a 1911 USGI. Got pictures of some? Take at least 2 cracked slides to convince me the steel is inferior. :{
Johnny Peppers
8th July 2006, 11:39
Parts can and do fail, and for that reason the Ordnance Department made sure there was a good supply at hand. There were approximately 7500 spare frames, many more slides, and countless small parts made for the Model 1911 pistols. If these parts never failed there would have been no need for spare parts.
If the collectibility of a Model 1911 has already been ruined, there is absolutely no reason not to shoot it, but the warning is about pistols that retain their collectibility due to rarity and condition rather than their value as a shooter. Even if nothing fails, the wear that is put on the pistol reduces it's value as a collectible. When a common 1918 produced Model 1911 in 99% condition will sell for $4000 and a modern clone can be had for less than $500 that will shoot just as accurately, there is no reason for destroying the Model 1911.
Ric4509
8th July 2006, 13:20
HaveBlue83 - the pistol is worth over $2,000. Tell you buddy to test, shoot 2 mags, clean the pistol thoroughly, and do not scratch the frame when removing or installing the slide stop. You know what I mean - "The Idiot Scratch"
exitwounds
8th July 2006, 13:21
Amen Johnny. It's like tootpaste, once you squeeze it out you can't put it back the way it was.
Phil
8th July 2006, 18:08
Amen Johnny. It's like tootpaste, once you squeeze it out you can't put it back the way it was.I'd tell your friend to think about it for awhile. There's no need to rush into a decision to shoot it or not, and the metallurgy really wasn't as good back then. He (and you) should read the posts on this forum and check the ads on GunsAmerica.com and GunBroker.com for an appreciation of what he has there. Few of us will ever have the privilege of owning such a piece of 1911 history and it would be a shame to risk damaging or destroying such an heirloom.
Hawkmoon
8th July 2006, 19:01
"The steel in the older ones wasn't as good as what modern pistols are made of"
__________________________________________________________________

I curious as to how you came to the conclusion the steel in the early 1911's is inferior. Seems the Colt passed the 6000 round endurance test with flying colors. If the steel was so bad wouldn't it have reared it's ugly head?

Inferior steel isn't exactly the problem. Back then, and especially when they were pushing production for the war, the metallurgy was simply not as uniformly consistent as what we see today. And with the early 1911s, instead of heat treating the entire slide they only heat treated a couple of places: the muzzle end, the area right around the slide stop notch, and maybe one other. So the structure of the steel wasn't uniform through the entire slide.

1911Tuner is as avid a shooter of old Colts as anyone, yet even he has written that the steel in the old ones isn't as "good" (meaning as hard and as uniform) as in modern pistols. Sure, there are many of the old 1911s that have had thousands upon thousands of rounds pushed through them. And there are others that have experienced cracked slides. The thing is, you never can predict when a slide will crack. If the gun is a mixmaster that was thrown together from junk parts and will never be more than a shooter grade pistol ... who cares? Shoot it until something breaks, replace the broken part, then shoot it some more.

But it does seem a terrible shame to find an apparently all original early M1911 that may be worth a couple of thousand dollars or more, and turn it into a 50 dollar paperweight because "guns were made to be shot."
Johnny Peppers
8th July 2006, 22:29
The end of the Colt slides were not hardened until the 1926 time period, and the first military contract pistol slides were not hardened until the 1937 contract. This is another consideration when using a Model 1911 as a shooter as the slide was hardened to prevent wear and battering to the bushing area of the slide. The fully hardened slides were a post WWII development.
191145
9th July 2006, 17:55
The gun is probably worth more than $2000 and is a piece of history. Be sure to treat it as the investment it is, because it's going to appreciate in value much faster this century than it did the last, particularly as it approaches it's 100th year. The finish is original and so are the grips. This was obviously a prized possession, and I can only guess that the grandfather's comment to shoot it was in some way in jest. If you want a .45 to shoot, buy a Springfield or Rock Island.
Johnny Peppers
9th July 2006, 18:55
If your grandfather had left you a beautiful $20 gold piece, you wouldn't want to spend it much less carry it in your pocket. The $20 gold piece was legal currency at one time and meant to be spent, but today it's value is much more for what it is than what it would buy.
Phil
9th July 2006, 19:11
If your grandfather had left you a beautiful $20 gold piece, you wouldn't want to spend it much less carry it in your pocket. The $20 gold piece was legal currency at one time and meant to be spent, but today it's value is much more for what it is than what it would buy.Perfectly expressed...............
qwixdraw
10th July 2006, 01:53
The end of the Colt slides were not hardened until the 1926 time period, and the first military contract pistol slides were not hardened until the 1937 contract. This is another consideration when using a Model 1911 as a shooter as the slide was hardened to prevent wear and battering to the bushing area of the slide. The fully hardened slides were a post WWII development.

That would agree with my speculations that, Spot harding of areas was a result of the A1 designation. The reason I speculate as problems arising from the barrel bushing wearing the grooves in the slide when assembled under combat conditions.(dirt and abrasives being present.) The hardened area wearing less And the slide stop being much easier to replace than the frame. (same for the bushing)
I still say it would take one **** of a lick to crack it. Much more than nomal shooting would do. And if all the metal to metal contact areas are clean and lubricated, there will be no wear.
That means the 1911-A1 slides are (maybe) subseptable to stress fractures. Not the M-1911, 'Big Daddy' can stop worrying when we go to the pistol range to show out.
"And that's all I have to say about that." ('Forest Gump')
Hawkmoon
10th July 2006, 02:04
The only response I have to that is that Caspian, whose slides are still machined from billet steel, not investment castings, states flat out that even their slides have cracked. Caspian slides (and frames) are generally considered to be about the best available. I'm quite sure they don't see a lot of cracked slides, but it shows that there is simply no way to predict or to anticipate when it might happen.

It's a personal decision. Me, personally, I simply can't understand why anyone would risk turning a $2000 family heirloom into a paperweight. YMMV.
AKsRule
10th July 2006, 02:05
If that 1911 were mine , I would shoot 1 mag of Target loads ,
clean it (caarefully) , and put it on Display :)
Johnny Peppers
10th July 2006, 10:57
The hardening of the end of the slide was a development on the commercial pistols carried over to the military pistols. The 10,000 pistols delivered in 1924 with the new features did not have hardened slides, and no more 1911A1's were ordered until 1937. The 1937 pistols did have the hardened slides which had been used on the commercial pistols for the past 11 years.
I can't imagine a situation where the pistols would be assembled under combat conditions, but the fit of the barrel bushing was of concern to the Ordnance Department, and gages were used to check the slide tolerances when the pistols were sent in for rebuild.
The cracking is not the result of one lick, but rather the stress generated over many rounds being fired. Rather like bending a piece of steel one time won't break it, but repeated bendings will eventually break it.
HaveBlue83
10th July 2006, 14:14
UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE.....

well, we shot it saturday morning...about 50 rnds through it...shot wonderfully.....we cleaned it and lubed it, and I will check on it today as well...

I shot my Springfield Armory 1911-A1 and his, and his was noticably tighter on the paper...I havent shot in a few months, and I need a LOT of practice, but you could still tell it was shooting more accurately than Mine. no problems.

I understand it is a part of history, and I am a HUGE WW2-present military buff for being only 23. I keep my things very nice. The "idiot-scratch".......I have that on my Springfield, because of the spring being new and hard to push in, and I admit I slipped a few times, but his 1911's spring is worn more, and it pushes in a LOT easier, so we shouldn't have a problem with that....

He said he would like a 1911-A1 for a shooter, like mine, that he can modify if he wants to, so this will probably only be shot occasionaly.

thank you for all of the reply's, I appreciate them.
Phil
10th July 2006, 22:28
UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE.....

well, we shot it saturday morning...about 50 rnds through it...shot wonderfully......Nice to hear that it's such a great shooter. Must have been a special feeling to actually get to shoot a historical gun like that.
HaveBlue83
12th July 2006, 11:57
yeah, it was......nothing like getting to feel what a REAL 1911 feels like to shoot, and how it does.
Mick_In_Texas
14th July 2006, 21:03
HaveBlue, I agree with JohnnyPeppers and Hawkmoon and several of the others, firstly in that your bud has a BEAUTIFUL WWI 1911. I wish someone had GIVEN me MINE... LoL...

Seriously, though, although I haven't researched the manufacturing process as thoroughly as quix and JohnnyPeppers and Hawk... Mine is mid- to late-Colt's 1918 manufacture, and it's apparently all original for an Augusta Armory rebuild after WWI. Barrel, slide, springs, firing pin, mechanicals all in FINE shape for her to be 88, 89 years old; no rust anywhere; finish worn on the muzzle end of the slide, some discoloration on the grip part of the frame, but, the original Black Army finish; mag is a little beat up, but, appears to two gunsmiths who love Ol' Slabsides to also be original, and it still feeds 'em as it gets 'em. That said:

I've shot her, after those two gunsmiths and myself checked her out. Standard factory loads, but, lead bullets. She was 100% and ready for more. I wasn't going for accuracy, only firing test; I hit the dang target, but, I was nervous shooting her, her being so old, and well, frankly, a collector's piece, and a dream (since I love the platform, it was my ultimate trip to get an original Colt's 1911, and also one that more than likely went to Europe in WWI, as some of the folks said, if only she could talk--both before, and after her return home!)... She's dirty, and I'm cleaning her up; but, while I WILL fire her occasionally, and it's incredible to learn that she is just as reliable as my Springers and my Rock, she will NOT be carried (I have a carry license in Texas) and she will NOT be fired often, and then, ONLY with factory-loaded, FMJs (from now on), and standard 230-grain bullets and factory standard powder charges, NO hot stuff or anything like that.

Hopefully I've got many, many more years on this ol' orb, but, I want her to live, in her original condition, and function long after I'm gone. I'm just thrilled and priviledged to have her. While to me, a gun is made to be shot... with THIS one, I DO have some restrictions on that.

Yeah, she'd shoot 'til she broke, I'm sure; but, she ain't gonna have to worry about ME breaking her. I love all my firearms, but, she is special.

With my apologies to the United States Marine Corps for this: "There are still some 1911s in the world, but, this one is MINE." And I respect her heritage, and her history, and her age; but, I also love it that she's still 100% functional. She's ready to rock, after all these years. She just won't have to very much.

Congrats to your friend on that 1911, Have. BEAUTIFUL piece of mechanical art.

Y'all all take care and be safe.
Mick