Wolf Recoil Springs

[BigO]

After cleaning up my Charles Daly Government model and checking the extractor tension , that is after cleaning out the extractor tunnel " Boy was there some gunk buildup in there" and I thought that sense the gun was made in 98 perhaps replacing the recoild spring might be a good idea .

When I stripped the gun and laid the factory spring next to the Wolf 16 lb spring there was about an inch-inch and a half difference in the springs lengths , with the Wolf being the longer one . This was out of a new unopened Calibration pack and yes I had the 16 lb spring . I installed it in the gun and there is noticably more tension on the slide . The package says standard Government Model spring and it is not a variable power spring just what is suppose to be a stock spring .

Are Wolf springs known to be made to the correct specs ?

Anyone have any ideas as to why the factory spring was so short ?

As I was having FTRTB malfunctions I am hoping that the new spring combined with a clean extractor and tunnel will make the malfunctions dissappear .

Going out on the 4th and give her a try .

[1911Tuner]

Howdy BigO.

You asked:

>Are Wolf springs known to be made to the correct specs ?<
****************

Yes. Wolff springs are pretty consistent as to their variations in rated load.
If it says 16 pounds on the package, it'll test to +/- a half-pound of that rating.

Recently, I've moved away from Wolff to ISMI recoil springs, for a couple of reasons. The Wolff springs seem to be losing tension faster than they should, and I find that I can only get about 1500-1800 rounds instead of the usual 2300-2500 that I used to get from them. ISMI springs have much improved on the excess variation that I noticed a few years back, and they now test at the rated load as closely as Wolff.

And:

>Anyone have any ideas as to why the factory spring was so short ?<

Yep. Factory "16 pound" springs in 5-inch guns normally test at about 14.5 pounds, and are typically two full turns shorter than Wolff springs. 30 turns as opposed to Wolff's 32. Springs also tend to take a set with use, shorten a little with use as compared to a new spring. Once set, the free length lasts for the life of the spring before the spring shortens further. A rule of thumb is that the spring is generally all done when its free length is 1.5 turns shorter than a new identical spring.

[LeeCreekKid]

I've heard (don't know if it's true) that as a spring loses tension, it gets shorter.

[1911Tuner]

A little further investigation into springs may be helpful.

LeeCreek,

Close. The spring loses its tension because it gets shorter with use. It gets shorter with use because it begins to work-harden and loses some elasticity.

Your recoil spring (for example) is designed to operate at a given load, rate, and tension...both in the preloaded state (gun in battery, spring extended to its limit as installed) and compressed. (Within its limits as installed)

All springs take a "set" within a short period of use, or even simply being installed in a preloaded state and static. This set is factored in by the designers and engineers, so that the spring will spend the greatest part of its service life operating within its correct range. This is why you'll notice that your 16-pound recoil spring feels a little stiffer when it's first installed than it does after just a little use...often within 20-30 rounds.

Once the initial set has been established, the spring will change very little, if any, throughout its engineered service life. In this case...an average of about 2,000-2500 rounds. It will lose a small amount of tension during the course of this period, but remains fairly stable until it starts to lose elasticity, and it starts to take a second set. The second set progresses rapidly because the spring has become work-hardened, and...because steel has a "memory" it becomes harder for the wire to "remember" that it's supposed to return to its free state.

If you think of a spring as a straight length of steel that has been wrapped around a mandrel, it will start to make sense. Remember bending and unbending a coat hanger? As it started to work harden in the bend, it got progressively easier to bend and straighten as it lost elesticity...and finally...
just before it snapped...it took on the shape of that bend. In other words, the steel's "memory" changed as it started to "remember" the bent shape instead of the straight shape. As a coil spring compresses, the wire is being bent. With each successive "bend" its memory starts to change, and it starts to remember the compressed state and forget the relaxed state. Once it has passed the point of remembering more of the compressed and less of the relaxed, it takes on the second set, and loses both free length and tension as the spacing between coils grows narrower.

Also...Assuming identical wire diameters and number of coils, two springs with different spacing between coils will give two very different readings on a tester in both the preloaded and compressed states, as well as two different free lengths. The spring with wider spacing will be stronger, and its rate will be higher. That is, it will provide more resistance per inch as it compresses, and it will unload its stored energy faster.

[Rio Vista Slim]

1911Tuner,
I have several sets of Wolff springs for both of my Series 70 Colts and my LW Commander. When it comes time to re-order, I'll have to give the ISMI springs a try. Thanks for the tip!

[vashooter]

After cleaning up my Charles Daly Government model and checking the extractor tension , that is after cleaning out the extractor tunnel " Boy was there some gunk buildup in there" and I thought that sense the gun was made in 98 perhaps replacing the recoild spring might be a good idea .

When I stripped the gun and laid the factory spring next to the Wolf 16 lb spring there was about an inch-inch and a half difference in the springs lengths , with the Wolf being the longer one . This was out of a new unopened Calibration pack and yes I had the 16 lb spring . I installed it in the gun and there is noticably more tension on the slide . The package says standard Government Model spring and it is not a variable power spring just what is suppose to be a stock spring .

Are Wolf springs known to be made to the correct specs ?

Anyone have any ideas as to why the factory spring was so short ?

As I was having FTRTB malfunctions I am hoping that the new spring combined with a clean extractor and tunnel will make the malfunctions dissappear .

Going out on the 4th and give her a try . Itoo bought a new Wolff spring due to having problems with FTRTB when releasing the slide, so out came the stock Armscor spring , same company who makes CD pistols too. Well after asking the same question and a trial run with the new spring I like the way it is much tighter in lockup and no more sloooooww release. Now after this spring takes a set I too wwill try a ISMI spring and compare it. I am thinking of getting a ultrasonic cleaner due to the fact that it will save me some q-tips , pipe cleaners etc. etc. FWIW Floyd :D

[Hawkmoon]

It's impossible to compare the rate of two springs by laying them side-to-side and looking at length alone.

As Tuner wrote, a coil spring is nothing but a piece of straight steel that has been wrapped around a mandrel. What it is, is a torsion bar that's been wrappped into a helix shape. The two factors that ultimately control the rate are the raw length of the wire, and the diameter of the wire. Once you make it into a coil spring, sub-factors added in are the diameter of the coil and the number of turns.

You can have two springs of the same length and same coil diameter, but different wire diameter and/or different number of coils, and they'll be different rates. The only way to really test a spring's rating is with a scale -- there's a discussion about these devices going on here somewhere.

[John]

I've been using ISMI springs for two years now. In the past, I used Wilson's or Wolff's. Every time I removed a used spring, it used to be about 1.5 - 2.0 cm shorter than a new one. With the ISMI ones, when you remove the old spring, it's hardly .5 cm shorter than the new one.

[LeeCreekKid]

I learned a lot about springs today.

[Lubaloy]

Be very careful with ISMI springs!
They are sometimes too long (read 'too many coils') for some pistols. If they stack solid you can break your bushing or slide.
The pencil line test they suggest does not really tell you the whole story. Just a half coil too much can damage your gun.
It is best to use calipers to measure available spring room, then measure wire diameter x number of coils, and trim to suit.
I don't consider the possible extended life worth the risk.
:butthead:

[1911Tuner]

Be very careful with ISMI springs!
They are sometimes too long (read 'too many coils') for some pistols. If they stack solid you can break your bushing or slide.
The pencil line test they suggest does not really tell you the whole story. Just a half coil too much can damage your gun.
It is best to use calipers to measure available spring room, then measure wire diameter x number of coils, and trim to suit.
I don't consider the possible extended life worth the risk.
:butthead:

Lub...That was once the case with ISMI springs. They came out of the package with about 36 turns, and it was assumed that the installer would trim to length. The last 10 that I ordered had 30 turns. Only thing that I can figure is that they had gotten complaints of busted guns. Advise all to count the coils in case you get one of the old stock springs.

Note: Check for coil bind with ANY spring marked for Commander or shorter.
Had a neighbor destroy a slide on a nice stainless Commander XSE with a Wilson spring so marked. 5 rounds was all it took.

[BigO]

Tuner as long as you're tuned into this thread , I would like your opinion on recoil springs for my mid sized Charles Daly . I am removing the FLGR and going with a standard rod and plug both designed for the full sized Commanders .

It has a 4 inch barrel rather than a 4 1/4 yet Ivan advises the use of a standard Commander spring . Do you have any expierence working with these shorter "Commanders" and if so what do you recomend for a recoil springs for them "weight also please" as I certainly don't want to damage my pistol with an overly long spring , yet I realy want to do away with tha God Forsaken FLGR .

Lastly could you tell me the length of a Commander spring plug , I bought one that is suppose to be for a Commander yet it is as long as my Government model one and I want to insure it isn't too long before I fire the weapon .

Thanks

BigO

[Lubaloy]

I'm not Tuner, but......
measure, measure, measure.
It's not hard to do. Take no ones word for anything. Learn how to determine proper number of coils yourself.
On a related note.....many full length guide rods have less available spring room than their conventional counterparts. And often, the internal diameter of the plug is machined using a standard drll bit.....yup, a slanted/tapered bottom of the hole. This will cause the open end of your spring to compress against the guide rod. As in close up the diameter.
:(
Silly stuff indeed.

[1911Tuner]

Lub...Didn't know that about the plugs. Good heads up.

BigO,

The few 4-inch guns with OEM-type recoil systems that I've seen will accept Commander springs...except they have a full quarter-inch less space, so the
packages marked "Commander" will usually have too many coils. As Lubaloy warned...Measure and cut. Coil bind can be destructive, and it does its damage quickly.

The plug for a Commander has to be shorter than the GM plug, or the end of it will hit the guide rod flange before the slide does...and the crash will...not may...WILL break either the bushing or the slide, or both. I can't remember the exact length off the top of my head, but I can get it and get back here.
Shortening the plug is a two-minute job on a lathe.

Likewise, the bushing skirt has to be shorter, or it will crash into the forward barrel lug. Immediate damage to the slide results.

The good part is that you can usually tell whether coil bind is there by hand-cycling the gun briskly. If you hear a metallic "Clack" as the slide hits the impact surface, you're probably okay. If you hear a dull "Thud" or "Crunch"...the spring is stopping the slide, and you have coil bind. Clip a half-turn at a time until you hear the metallic sound...and then clip an extra half turn just to be sure.

To figure the length of the compressed spring, measure the diameter of the wire and multiply by the number of coils.

[Ken Grant]

What is a good way to measure spring space in a 1911? I have been trying to think of a way to do it on an Officer's ACP which has a reverse plug recoil system.

[1911Tuner]

What is a good way to measure spring space in a 1911? I have been trying to think of a way to do it on an Officer's ACP which has a reverse plug recoil system.

Eyeball caliper. Hold it up next to the other spring and compare.

Seriously though...Use a dial caliper to measure from the top of one wire to the bottom of the next, and subtract two wire diameters. Careful not to compress the coils, or you'll get a false reading, and angle the caliper slightly to match the angle of the coils.

[Lubaloy]

Actually......
Use the depth rod of your calipers to measure the available spring space.
Do so with the bushing and plug or the reverse plug in place, and measure from the rear of the slides recoil spring tunnel to the bottom of its hole. Be careful to catch the outermost 'lip' of the bottom of the hole.
The available depth or 'spring room' needs to always be greater than the solid stacked spring.
If this confuses you, I'd suggest seeking council from a known smith.
Sorry for my 'tone'. There is just plain far too much dis-information and speculation desseminated as FACT on the net as of late.
I hate hearing of troubles caused by ill taken advice.

[BigO]

Ok guys I measured the spring plugs I have on hand two are suppose to be for a Government model "one is in the gun" and came up with 1.530 . Two I just bought are suppose to be Commander length and they measured 1.515 . I am guessing that this minor difference of .015 isn't enough to make them a Commander spring plug .

I have seached the web and read till my eyes burn and can't find the specs for the parts in a 1911 .

The openended plug that came with the gun has a half flange on it and measures .960 on the area that is without the flange and 1.060 on the area with .

[John]

Commander recoil spring plug: about 1.07-1.08" (2.74 cm)
Government : about 1.5" (3.84 cm)

[1911Tuner]

BigO...Your plug with a half flange sounds like a reverse plug...I'd like to see a picture if possible. And, no....015 isn't enough difference.

Lub...Ain't tryin' to be hard to get along with...but measuring the tunnel like that doesn't allow for the dead space in the end of the spring plug, which effectively reduces the space available by a couple coil diameters or more...and the thickness of the guide rod flange, which reduces it another two coil diasmeters. Also...FLGR rods tend to have a slightly thicker flange than the standard ones...typically about a 64th inch thicker. It still should be double-checked with the system assembled.

[Spindly61]

This conversation was brought up in the Armscor section a few days ago also. The discussion was "New Wolff Springs". I'm not familiar with guide rods, I quoted Kuhnhausen on dimensions for a 5" pistol. Armscor BA was in on the conversation maybe it could help. I don't know. I was just trying to help.

[Ken Grant]

The Officer's is the same one that Tuner and I talked about in another thread.
With the spring out and the rod and reverse plug in place,I still can't get full slide travel to the rear. There is not enough room and the guide rod is beating up the frame.
If I thin the flanges of the rod and plug enough to get full slide travel(according to my rough measurements using pencil marks),they will be very thin and not very strong.
What I was asking in my question was a good way to measure the space between the rod seat in the frame and the slide when all the way back like in recoil.
This with barrel and bushing in place.
I don't know who installed this recoil system in this pistol but it seems as whoever did it did not know what they were doing and failed to check it out .

[John]

The guide rod flange does not have to be thick. If you check the one in the Para Ordnance Slim Hawg, we reviewed, it's a very thin piece of metal. Still it works fine!

[Lubaloy]

Tuner,
I must respectfully disagree with the following:

"Lub...Ain't tryin' to be hard to get along with...but measuring the tunnel like that doesn't allow for the dead space in the end of the spring plug, which effectively reduces the space available by a couple coil diameters or more...and the thickness of the guide rod flange, which reduces it another two coil diasmeters. Also...FLGR rods tend to have a slightly thicker flange than the standard ones...typically about a 64th inch thicker. It still should be double-checked with the system assembled."

The spring must fit into the available space. That 'space' is the distance from the rear of the slide's recoil spring tunnel, to the front of the recoil spring plug. The rear of the tunnel makes contact with the front of the guide rod flange in full recoil. The flange thickness will effect total slide travel, but does not effect the available space. Same thing with a shock buffer. No effect on the space the spring occupies in compression.

Take another look at it, I think you'll agree with me.

:)

Edited to clarify a bit:

Think of the recoil spring tunnel as a closed end tube, closed at the front of the pistol by the end of the .453" internal diameter.
The back side of the tube is closed when it makes contact with the forward surface of the guide rod flange, a cap if you will, for the open end.
Doesn't make any difference how thick or thin that cap is, the internal volume of the tube is unchanged.
If the spring stacks solid before the cap makes contact with the rear, open end of the tube, all of the force is transferred via a solid stacked spring to the front of the tube. Then of course to the bushing...... :nono:

[Ken Grant]

I need a good way to measure the FREE space between the frame surface where the rear of the plug sets and the end of the slide where the reverse plug sets when in full rear slide travel.
This measurement to be taken with barrel,bushing and slide stop in place,leaving the recoil system out.
Thanks for any suggestions
Ken

[1911Tuner]

Lubaloy wrote:

>Think of the recoil spring tunnel as a closed end tube, closed at the front of the pistol by the end of the .453" internal diameter.
The back side of the tube is closed when it makes contact with the forward surface of the guide rod flange, a cap if you will, for the open end.
Doesn't make any difference how thick or thin that cap is, the internal volume of the tube is unchanged.
If the spring stacks solid before the cap makes contact with the rear, open end of the tube, all of the force is transferred via a solid stacked spring to the front of the tube. Then of course to the bushing.<
*******************

No argument on the point of the spring stacking up solid before the open end of the plug reaches the guide flange. I understand that if the plug will touch the flange, the spring isn't in bind...but the problem doesn't normally occur in 5-inch guns unless the spring is way too long. The problems usually come when springs go into Commander-length and shorter guns...but can occur in 5-inch guns too, given a few too many coils.


Okay...If you measure from the end of the dust cover to the rear of the recoil tunnel at the front of the rails, you're not taking into account the thickness of the flange and the material in the end of the plug.

Step 1...Rod/flange goes into the tunnel and butts against the shoulder formed by the rails.

Step 2...Spring goes over the rod and butts against the flange...which puts it from .085 to .100 inch ahead of the shoulder, depending on how thick the flange is. Right?

Plug goes on over the spring, and the inner surface of the plug butts against the open end of the spring. This distance from inner surface to outer surface
often varies as much as a 32nd inch...or about 2/3rds of a coil diameter from one plug to another. Now the total space available for the compressed spring is reduced by about .130 inch...or just over 1/8th inch less than
measuring from the edge of the dust cover to the rails...and more than enough to bust a slide and bushing should the spring be cut to fit the space indicated by measuring without figuring in the flange and plug's reduction.

Slip the spring into the tunnel without the guide rod, stopping it against the rails, and make a mark on it that aligns with the end of the dust cover...then do it again with the guide rod in place, and look at where the mark is in relation to the end of the dust cover. Now, slip a .100 thick shock buffer onto the guide rod and check it again. You've lost a total of nearly a quarter-inch of space in the tunnel with the shock buffer...or about 5 wire diameters.
Granted, the spring will cut through the buffer if it stacks into coil bind, but it still puts an impact stress onto the bushing and the bushing's lug raceway in the slide that those areas were never intended to absorb.

Hypothetical gun described below, for illustrative purposes:

An open tunnel measurement of 1.10 inch would seem to provide just enough space for a 24 coil spring with .045 wire diameter, (1.08 inch) until you install a guide rod with a .100 inch flange. The combined wire diameters plus the flange thickness gives you coil bind with .018 inch of slide travel to go. Add the plug that takes up another .050 inch, and you have over a 16th inch of slide travel after the spring goes solid. Crash.

Go and measure a Commader tunnel, omitting the guide rod flange. Cut a standard 32-coil Wolff spring as closely as you can so that the combined wire diameters will match that dimension...then trim off just barely enough so that the coils won't touch. Then, assemble the gun normally, with the recoil system in place...and go shoot it.

[1911Tuner]

...Is worth a thousand words, they say. So, maybe these will help.
Note the stop shoulder for the guide rod flange, and how close the end of the rod comes to the end of the slide tunnel in the second picture. Eyeball caliper puts it at about .150 inch or so. Also note how far back the end of the slide tunnel sits from the end of the frame tunnel. Measuring from the end of the frame tunnel to the stop shoulder doesn't provide enough information to figure the spring's length, especially without the guide rod flange factored in.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e243/1911Tuner/FlangeandRails.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e243/1911Tuner/PeekaBoo.jpg

[wichaka]

I understand what you're sayin' there Tuner bro'

If the flange material is thin, it will stack the spring more than if it's thick.

If its thick, the slide will not come back as far, thus the less probablility of spring bind.

If it's thin, the slide will come back farther, and the potential is there for bind.

[1911Tuner]

I understand what you're there Tuner bro'

If the flange material is thin, it will stack the spring more than if it's thick.

If its thick, the slide will not come back as far, thus the less probablility of spring bind.

If it's thin, the slide will come back farther, and the potential is there for bind.

Not exactly...The thicker the flange is, the more space it occupies in the tunnel, and the more likely it is to cause coil bind. Think of how a shock buffer affects it. An extra .100 inch added to the flange equals a little more than two spring wire diameters. Or consider this...The thicker the flange, the
more the spring is compressed in preload when the gun is in battery. The more it's compressed, the closer the coils are to each other, and the closer they are, they have less space as they go to full compression, and the less distance the slide has to travel before they touch.

But...The point is that if the thickness of the flange and plug isn't figured into the spring's compressed length, and the measurement taken from either the end of the frame tunnel, OR from the end of the slide tunnel to the stop shoulder at the frame rails with the slide full rearward...the calculation is flawed and won't provide an accurate measurement of available compressed spring space within the tunnel.

Again, this isn't as critical in 5-inch guns as in the shorter ones...but it can still be an issue even in the 5-inchers if an installer has an overlength spring and is shooting for the maximum number of turns on the spring. The final spring length should still be checked for coil bind as installed in the gun...and the only way to do that is with witness marks.

[wichaka]

Yep......after I posted that, I re-read it and it wasn't right.......I had it backwards. You beat me to it again........

Ya know, you aint as slow as some people think! :D

Anyway......I do understand it.........its all in tolerance stacking.......

[1911Tuner]

LOL...Somethin' bothered me after that...so I came back and reread what I half-read last time. (I tend to do that after bein' awake for 20 hours.) A thicker flange would stop the slide shorter and would balance out the reduction in space. Thinner flange would allow the slide to move farther and create a greater liklihood of stack/bind...but we still have to
factor in the plug. I went out in the shop and measured four different ones.
I got four different measurements that varied about a 32nd inch between the extremes. Time was that they were all made to spec, within allowable tolerance...but everybody seems to have their own ideas on those specs.

Just a simple measurement to determine available spring space within the tunnel will getcha close...but it still needs to be checked with the gun assembled, as installed.

Slide full rearward, measure from the end of the slide to the guide rod flange.
Then measure from the spring plug's shoulder to the rear face. Then again on the inside of the plug from rear face to where the caliper depth rod stops...but not in the center. That will give you a false reading because the
inner plug is concave. Measure with the depth rod as close to the outer edge as possible....and subtract that dimension from the first. That will get you to within .010 inch or so...but that's still enough to cause impact if the spring is tailored to max length within the tunnel if there's any tolerance stacking or variation of the wire diameter. Double-check with witness marks, and if there's any doubt, trim an extra half-coil off the spring.

Again...A little experimentation will let you learn to "feel" and hear coil bind.
Install a GM spring in a Commander and rack the slide. Then, install the right spring and do it again. You can feel and hear the difference. My standard practice is to trim a half-coil at a time until I hear and feel slid contact between slide and guide flange...and then trim an extra half-coil...and I haven't had one to crash yet.

NOW...we're on the same page. :rolleyes:

*yawn*...G'night. 0400 is gonna come early.

[John]

The final spring length should still be checked for coil bind as installed in the gun...and the only way to do that is with witness marks.

Johnny, please stop trying to make Wichaka undertand, these things are way beyond his comprehension. If he can't figure out the Wilson mags issue, you expect him to figure out springs and spring length? :p (darn, I miss Tom, I have no one to tease now).

Now, please oh Master, describe to us mortals, the details on how to make sure that the springs we use are not too long for our guns, so that I can make a sticky out of it.

Thank you Master

[BigO]

Tuner you need to write a book " 1911 fixes for Dummy's" .

I bet no less than half the membership here would buy it .

It probably wont make you rich but you could prolong those fishing/hunting trips by a day or two .

[1911Tuner]

Well...You can measure everything and add it all up to figure linear space available, and multiply the number of coils by a wire diameter and see if the spring takes up more than the available space....or just check to see that the slide travel is the same with and without the spring installed. I feel that the first method leaves too many variables to completely trust it, and prefer to check for the condition with the recoil system installed. YMMV

System installed, plug removed. Put a piece of tape on the *frame's* dust cover and pull the slide all the way to the rear. Hold it firmly, and use a straightedge to make a mark on the tape that aligns with the end of the slide.


Install the plug and pull the slide full rearward again...until the frame stops it...and hold it firmly. If the marks align, you're good to go. (At least, that's always been my experience.) If the front of the slide sits forward of the mark, the spring is stacked into coil bind, and it has to be trimmed. Cut one-half coil at a time until the marks align...and then clip another half-coil to make sure.

If, when you pull the slide rearward briskly, the sound of the slide and frame impacting is a dull "thud" or "crunch" the spring is stopping the slide instead of the impact surfaces of slide, guide flange, and frame rails. Bad JuJu. That causes the impact to be transferred to the spring plug and bushing...which throws stresses on the bushing lug's raceway in the slide. If the spring stops the slide as much as .050 inch before the impact surface does, the end of the slide can break at that thin area, and the slide is toast.

5-inch guns with standard recoil systems have ample room, and I've never seen one coil bind with any industry standard spring. Even ISMI springs, which used to come with 34 turns haven't presented a problem.

Guns shorter than 5 inches, or with reverse-plug recoil systems should be checked and double-checked...even if the spring is labeled for the gun in question. I've seen such spring dropped in without checking and work fine...and a couple have done permanent and expensive damage. The bushing will normally let go before destroying the slide...but not always.

[Pappy]

Tuner you need to write a book " 1911 fixes for Dummy's" .

I bet no less than half the membership here would buy it .

It probably wont make you rich but you could prolong those fishing/hunting trips by a day or two .

I agree. We should start a poll to see how much one would pay. With Johnny's permission of course...Pappy

[1911Tuner]

Write a book? I dunno guys. Sounds like work...


:lh:

[Pappy]

Write a book? I dunno guys. Sounds like work...


:lh:

Let's do some off-the-wall math.
Supposing we could get 100 buyers @ $50 a copy = $5000.
Let me start a poll.....
Come on Johnny, you know it would sell...Pappy

[jaybo292]

I need a book bad!!
Just changed my SA GI model recoil spring out today with a new Wolff 16lb. It was also longer than the factory one by about 1 inch.

Jay

[1911Tuner]

Fifty bucks a copy??? Good gawd! I woulda figgered closer to ten. :p

[Pappy]

Fifty bucks a copy??? Good gawd! I woulda figgered closer to ten. :p

Johnny, if you say so, I will post a poll and we'll what the response is. Just for grins...OK?? Pappy

[jaybo292]

I would gladly pay $50.00 for a book from Johnny.
But it would have to have lots of pictures for me understand it all. :p

Jay

[BigO]

Hey guys how about this . A DVD set with Tuner building on a each of RIA's , one a standard Government model , one the 4 inch , and one with the 3.5 barrel .

He could explain the differences in things such as recoil springs , use of guide rods etc. etc. , when it comes to fitting certain parts he could just take stills and shoot them and then all we would have to do is pause the player in order to freeze a picture on our screens so we could study it .

I think this would be less tiresome on Tuner than writing a book and verbally explaining things is easierer than writing . Plus he wouldn't need a publisher and could just make copies with a Program like "ICopy DVD's2" that sells for a whole $50 at any Best Buy store or even online at places like www.TigerDirect.com Blank DVD's sell for about .50 each .

I imaging we could find a few ameture Video editors among the membership to put it all together on a couple of DVD's that would speed up the process .

Maybe Ivan could Donate the base Pistols for this project as it would be great advertising for RIA/Armscor products .

Tuner could just keep a master copy or two laying around and burn one copy when anyone wants to buy it from him . Considering what some of these kind of instructional things sell for I would cough up $75 at the drop of a hat to get ahold of something like this made by Tuner .

Just name the thing "Customizing the RIA's" .

Tuner , would you please consider something like this ? :D

[1911Tuner]

Well guys...A DVD with me modifying an RIA or any other pistol would probably be a little disappointing, because the gun would wind up lookin' pretty much what it looked like when I started. Why? Mainly because any modifications that I do are geared toward making the gun as close to dead-nuts, get-you-home-alive reliable as I can make it. Simply put...I'm not a pistolsmith. I'm a mechanic...an armorer.

I do very little of what you'd call "Custom" work. I'll tighten up a slide/frame fit to get the rattles out of it, or fit up a barrel tightly...and then create a little clearance here and there to make sure that it will run...with accuracy
being a distant second concern. But pretty? Sorry. I just don't look at a 1911 pistol and envision how it'll look, or whether it'll draw ooohs and aaahs
from the crowd at the Shot Show. I also don't look at one and think about sub-one inch 50-yard groups. My approach is..and always has been..."What do I have to do to get this thing to run through 25,000 rounds of who-hit-John ammo without missin' a beat?"

My favorite thing to do is take a pistol that chokes like a pukin' buzzard and turn it around. I love the ones that have been back to the factories without results, or the ones that 2 or 3 smiths have taken a crack at and pronounced'em as unsalvageable...and makin'em rock and roll like they're supposed to.

I don't mess with such range toys as raceguns or comp guns or bullseye guns. Those are fine if that's your driving force...but it just ain't my cuppa tea. I just don't look at a 1911 and see that. I see a man killer and a life saver, and approach each one with the thought foremost in my mind that THIS pistol may one day have to save the owner's life...and my job is to see to it that it doesn't let him down. If I have to sacrifice a little accuracy to reach that goal, then so be it. In a 30-foot kill zone, I'll never see the difference between a 2-inch 50-yard gun and a 4 inch gun. Not that I don't care about accuracy, and not that I don't try for all that I can get...I just won't sacrifice one tenth of one degree of reliability in order to get one-hole groups. A weapon that'll cut the X-ring out of a target at 50 yards is of scant use if it doesn't inspire complete confidence in its function...and most people lose that confidence if the gun chokes even twice in a thousand rounds. I know that I do.

98% of my building actually involves rebuilding and bringing a worn or incorrectly made pistol into spec...and mostly the old warhorses that are too far gone or non-original or correct to have any collector value. I will rework one that is original if the owner insists, but only after tryin' to talk him out of it, if I can get it to function reliably without invasive work.

The other part the problem is that I just HATE to have my picture taken. I mean H-A-T-E it! That, and I'm just not a very good narrator.

So...I may write a book one day, and I promise that it'll have pictures out the wazoo...but I just ain't too sure about a DVD.

[wichaka]

I've got a friend here that's a video producer, so he could make the DVD.

Tuner bro......I really dont wanna see your ugly face anyway! :D

Just wanna see your hands workin over a 1911. And making one that shows proper reliability work, is hard to come by these days. Seems everyone wants to modify etc. Would be refreshing to see a DVD that shows that type of thing.

He can dub in my voice to narrate it........since we're both armorers......we'll get R done!

[BigO]

Just wanna see your hands workin over a 1911. And making one that shows proper reliability work, is hard to come by these days. Seems everyone wants to modify etc. Would be refreshing to see a DVD that shows that type of thing.

Agreed , the only reason I thought of the RIA's is that they have all three popular sized pistols , are often a little rough and need a bit of work to make them totally reliable , and the fact that Ivan might be able to supply pistols with out the cost of firearms being figured into making it happen .

Maybe customizing was the wrong phrase to use , but it would be nice to see some aftermarket parts added that needed fitting and how Tuner would do it to make sure they fit and function correctly . Perhaps a Beavetail safety , aftermarket trigger , and sight work/replacement . Watching him do the "poor mans trigger job" would be nice also .

Someone good with video manipulation could always replace your face with that of a big yellow smilely Tuner .

[John]

All I can say at this moment is "Stay tuned and be patient". We can't do all things in the same time, and if everything goes as planned, you won't be disappointed by the wait.

[1911Tuner]

BigO wrote:

> but it would be nice to see some aftermarket parts added that needed fitting and how Tuner would do it to make sure they fit and function correctly . Perhaps a Beavetail safety , aftermarket trigger , and sight work/replacement . Watching him do the "poor mans trigger job" would be nice also.<
*************

Well...An trigger fit would be within my scope, as is The Poor Man's Trigger job. (One of my favorites)....but I don't have the jig for a ducktail safety. Sights would be okay as long as they're standard issue, dovetail rear/stake-on front. My mill is on the blink and likely will be for some time. (Lightning ran in on it abd fried the electricals.)

As far as Ivan supplying a pistol, he'd have to bring it to me, since I let my FFL lapse several years ago, and can't receive firearms. It would be better to
do the work to one of my own.

John...You've got my curiosity piqued.

[1911Tuner]

All I can say at this moment is "Stay tuned and be patient". We can't do all things in the same time, and if everything goes as planned, you won't be disappointed by the wait.

This mean I'm gettin' a raise?

[Ken Grant]

Heck,I have spent much more than $50.00 on ink and paper while chasing Tuner around on several forums for a couple of years.
I must have hundreds of pages of his stuff. I don't believe a $1000.00 would cover the costs in time and materials.
I am also sure that I have missed some,as several times during searches ,I have found things that I have missed.
Johnny,get my E-Mail about a visit?
Ken

[Ken Grant]

I would like to be the Gofer and bottlewasher when this was done.

Would even supply some pistols to be used.
4 Norks-1 NIB and 1 Compact
Several Colt Series 80----Commanders or Officer's ACP
Griffon
Argentines
Would love to see the NIB Norinco checked out,smoothed up and shoot it for the Vid.

[1911Tuner]

Johnny,get my E-Mail about a visit? Ken

Not lately buddy. You got an ETA yet?

[Ken Grant]

When ever you say!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Got more time than money :D
Will bring the Officer's and 4 Norks for your research(one NIB)

[1911Tuner]

When ever you say!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Got more time than money :D
Will bring the Officer's and 4 Norks for your research(one NIB)


You name the day, bro. I'm flexible. Just gimme a couple days advance notice so I can be sure to be here. Warning...If ya bring me a NIB Nork, ya may not leave with it. :D

Kelie is workin graveyard 7-7 in the ER down at the hospital. On 3/Off 4...then On 4/Off 3...so I dunno if she'll be much company to Sandra. I'll try to get her schedule nailed down and get back to ya for the days that you
arrange.

[Ken Grant]

How about Tuesday AM? Don't worry about Sandra,she will be happy playing with Pepper and the others,as well as watching Soaps on T.V.

Sorry to hear about your Mill,Want me to bring Meters and check it out?
Wish I still had all the electricial stuff that I lost in the fire. Motors,Motor Starters,Limit Sws.,Pushbuttons and so forth.
You are now getting into an area that I am good at. Spend most of my life on Industrial electricial work and control systems.
Ken

P.S. As for Sandra,I have an Aunt in Lexington she could visit while we are there.

[1911Tuner]

Tuesday's good. No sense in checkin' the mill. It's 40 miles away, still in the basement of one my other houses, and it's been occupied since June 10th...and I don't have a key yet. The machine is pretty well fried though.
Does the term "Meltdown" put it in perspective? :butthead:
I think I'm just gonna buy another one at some point and donate that one to the community college. Let the electrical students rewire it and earn a few extra credits...and it's tax deductible! :cool:

E-mail sent!

[jb45colt]

Well if Tuner goin to make a video, he must supply the recipe to the Turbo Coffee. Because some of use don't live close enough to Tuner, to sample it.

[Ken Grant]

Will be drinking Turbo Coffee with Tuner Tues. AM. It is good coffee but not as good as mine. I guess you could call mine SUPERCHARGED TURBO COFFEE.
Luzianne/Chickory and fill basket about half full.
Keeping this post 1911 related,I am going to show Tuner how some Gunsmiths(?????) can screw up a good pistol. The one that worked on this Officer's ACP either didn't know what he was doing or didn't care.

[John]

Most probably both!

[1911Tuner]

Will be drinking Turbo Coffee with Tuner Tues. AM. It is good coffee but not as good as mine. I guess you could call mine SUPERCHARGED TURBO COFFEE.
Luzianne/Chickory and fill basket about half full.
Keeping this post 1911 related,I am going to show Tuner how some Gunsmiths(?????) can screw up a good pistol. The one that worked on this Officer's ACP either didn't know what he was doing or didn't care.

Bring me summa that Chickory stuff and we'll see who can take it! :p

Hey...Ya don't hafta show me how a "Professional gunsmith" can screw the pooch on a 1911. I've followed a few, and what I found was...a little surprising. You'd be shocked at the number of high-end smiths who don't really understand how the thing functions. After almost a hundred years, it would seem to be pretty straightforward...

[wichaka]

Been checking this spring thing out........and have found a few things.

If the flange of the guide rod is thicker at the recoil face side, then it'll keep the slide from coming back that proportionate distance. Which in turn, pre-loads the recoil spring more. If it's thicker on the spring side, it still has the same result.

Same as using a shok-buff, it keeps the slide from moving back the proportionate thickness of the buff, and again will pre-load the spring a bit more.........but can not over bind the spring, as the distance inside the spring tunnel/dust cover of the slide is the same, and that does not change.
As there's nothing that protrudes into the dust cover on the slide to cause the bind.

So me thinks we need to revisit this one again...........