Serial Numbers Prefix

[harryenoch@mchsi.com]

We have a M1911 which we can not identify. The ser# of the gun is NO. 97385. The prefix is all capital NO with a period, no line under any part.and the NO are both the same size. The numbers and letters are in the front of this period. The gun was proofed by JMG. The patina of the gun is correct. The ser# comes back to a 1914-15 Navy, but the prefix is not or appears not to be Colt and John Gibert was not at his post to 1917. The gun presently has a Remington Rand Slide, of all things, United States Property on Left in the correct spot. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks Harry

[OD*]

Harry,

You may want to ask this question on the USGI forum, more collectors may see it that way.

[John]

I moved it there.

[Doran]

I think we'll need to see a picture of that one.

[exitwounds]

At that range the serial number prefix should be a N with an underlined smaller o. Good pictures would be helpful, the pistol may have been renumbered at some point, by someone.

[harryenoch@mchsi.com]

The ser# has not been touched or restamped. From what I have found out thus far is that Colt may have subcontracted some 1911 and that there may have been duplication of numbers The Ser# looks about the same as a WW11 Remington Rand late production., but old JMG would be a a little old . I have Photos but will need to e-mail them as they will not post. Thanks again for the help, Harry

[John]

Why won't pictures post? Did you read the FAQ section?

[191145]

'NO' is not a prefix. It is merely the abbreviation for 'Number', and so is not part of the serial number as a prefix would be, such as 'C-'.

[Johnny Peppers]

From what I have found out thus far is that Colt may have subcontracted some 1911 and that there may have been duplication of numbers

Springfield Armory was allowed to produce the Model 1911 after Colt had produced 50,000 pistols, but never got into full production with slightly less than 26,000 pistols being produced in four years. This was not a subcontract, but an agreement between Colt and the Ordnance Department. Where does the information come from that Colt subcontracted some pistols?

While the No. is an abbreviation for Number, C is an abbreviation for Commercial Sales, and both are considered a prefix as far as the study of the pistols is concerned.

[harryenoch@mchsi.com]

Here's the Picture http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i244/harryenoch/MVC-073S.jpg

[Johnny Peppers]

The original serial number has been removed, and the serial number shown has been added with a pantagraph machine. The JMG acceptance stamp is also indication that the serial number is not the original number and has been altered. Pistols with altered serial numbers should be avoided.

[John]

The one before the last digit seems a little strange.

[John Holbrook]

Here is 97362. The cartouche is WGP, Walter G. Penfield.

http://www.fototime.com/{B3DA0388-00F8-4039-A98E-9163324AFEE9}/picture.JPG

[191145]

'The original serial number has been removed, and the serial number shown has been added with a pantagraph machine. The JMG acceptance stamp is also indication that the serial number is not the original number and has been altered.'

Now we're getting somewhere.
I still disagree about the prefix, although I understand how any marking contributes to the study of the gun. Any suffix or prefix is by definition part of the serial number, but not the word 'number', it's sign '#' or abbreviation 'No'. In other words, you would not include that on the paperwork when transferring it as you would the 'C-' or '-C' on a commercial Government Model or the letter suffix on a Luger.

[harryenoch@mchsi.com]

We are getting closer. I took the slide and grip off and above the right hand corner of the grip, about 1/2' in front of the NO very close to the grip, has been ground. Not the area of the present ser# but to the left. What appears to be the remains of No with a line and the first number. The present ser # is not by hand for sure. It appears the gun was stamped too far to the left, ground off, and restamped. The present ser# is in virgin steel. You all have been of great help and thanks, What would the manufacture do with a mistamped frame? thanks harry

[Johnny Peppers]

From Clawson's 3rd Edition of his Collector's Guide, page 2.

"Military pistols were serial numbered from 1 - 7500 on the right side of the receiver forward of the slide stop hole. Government Models (Commercial Sales) pistols were serial numbered from C1 - C2250 on the left side of the receiver. The military serial number prefix was "No." from number 1 to about 4500, and No (underlined o) from 4500 to the end of production."

There has been confusion on this forum in the past about which model a pistol was because the No. prefix was not given with the serial number.

[exitwounds]

Whomever restamped (or engraved) the pistol destroyed it's collector value, and most likely raises legal issues as Johnny mentioned regarding altered serial numbers. The serial number does not fall into the range of known replacement numbers used on USGI pistols with defaced serial numbers.

[Johnny Peppers]

The pantagraph machine is the favorite tool of the fakers. It follows a pattern on one end and duplicates the same pattern on the other end at whatever ratio you have chosen. It uses a tiny burr much like a dentists drill to engrave the metal. Most jewelry shops have them for engraving initials in jewelry or items like trophies. The smaller the number or letter to be engraved, the harder it is to keep them all the same size. When the engraving is looked at with a magnifying glass, the cutter marks are evident and the ends where the tool is picked up or set down is rounded. Normally a period (.) is hard to do and is usually slightly enlongated.
Notice in the engraving that the O in NO. is larger than the N, and the 9 is much larger than the other numbers. The person that engraved it had no idea that there was any difference in the NO, or that the acceptance stamp made any difference in relation to the serial number.

[harryenoch@mchsi.com]

Thanks. I have had serveral guns in the last 40 years that where "Lunch Box guns". Stolen by the employees of the factory piece by piece. Do we know when the inspector stamp was placed, before or after the ser# was stamped. We believe that the ser# that was ground off was way off in location. The forged # is in the right location and the metal is full thickness. If the frame was rejected, it would be subject to theft. Any way, we are saving the slide and making the frame a shooter. Thanks harry

[Johnny Peppers]

The acceptance stamp was the last thing applied to the pistol. It indicated that the pistol had passed all inspections and had been accepted by the government by the authority of the person whose initials appear on the pistol.
True lunch box pistols are rare and were usually stolen as parts before they were completed. The farther the pistol was into production the harder it was to steal, and once a pistol was serial numbered it had to be accounted for. It has become common for pistols with the serial number removed to be called lunch box pistol. An acceptance stamp is proof that it was not a lunch box pistol.

[Sgt. Quincannon]

Would you be interested in selling the frame (through an FFL dealer, of course) and/or the slide?

[bgiven]

Looks like a re-stamp to me......

[Johnny Peppers]

Close. It has been engraved rather than stamped.
While most dealers wouldn't have a clue that the serial number had been altered from the original number, going through a dealer doesn't make it any more legal.