"United States Property" Markings

[Mick_In_Texas]

There was an interesting thread here in the USGI section about an unfortunate gentleman who was arrested in New York, because he was legally transporting (federal law) USGI 1911A1 which he had found in his deceased father's belongings. El Commandante (John) preferred to close the thread. It was getting into legal/attorney areas.

BUT... when I got my Colt 1918-manufacture 1911, I did, out of curiousity, wonder about all our collector's items with that "United States Property" stamp on the frames... How did WWI and WWII vets, get permission to "keep" these fine USGI .45s? My own is 88 years old, fully functional, but, of course, has that property stamp on the frame. I don't fly at all, and rarely cross state lines in my own life, but, am curious... how these fine old pistols legally got out among the civilian population. Several posters in that thread, mentioned the DCM/CMP program that was pretty much shut down by Lyndon B. Johnson in the 60s. Obviously, I got my own from a private citizen who had it to sell. And it came from the apparently rather draconian State of New York.

I hope I'm not irritating the mods or El Commandante, but, I'm just curious about the history of the USGI pistols "getting out" into the civilian/general population. I've got one sitting beside me, here... as I type.

Any information would be appreciated, as would be good discussion. Y'all all take care and be safe.
Mick

[mayagrafix]

Im curious also... I remeber back in the 70's that anything marked US Property was agaisnt the law to purchase (case in point: I was ofered a M1911A1 in 1975 by a vet for 100 dlls. but did not buy it because of the Fed regulation mentioned).

[Tom]

How did WWI and WWII vets, get permission to "keep" these fine USGI .45s?

Well, I cannot speak to true U.S. military-issued 1911's, but I can tell you that misapproriation by soldiers and sailors is a time-honored tradition. I think the statute of limitation has run out, so I think I can openly confess to "appropriating" plenty of hand tools (including one of those $400-$700 hammers!) and other items during my career. To that end, I don't see it as being really difficult for someone to manage to have a 1911 follow them home.

[Hunter]

In the Marine Corps we called that liberating. Such as I liberated some M 16 magazines from the armory that my buddy worked at. This is a random example to use the word at the time I did not even have an AR 15.

[Mick_In_Texas]

Interesting, guys.

I'm of the thinking now, as Tom and Hunter said... that many of these old USGI pistols, maybe, simply, never got "turned in" back to the armorers on discharge of the soldier or sailor. Since my Colt has an Augusta Armory rework stamp on the frame, it apparently made it back into the system after the end of WWI; there was also the DCM/CMP program that was mentioned in the original thread, and so, some of these "United States Property" pistols may have found their hands into civilians through that channel, as opposed via actual veterans who had been issued them. My dad had a Walter P38 German Issue along with an SS officer's sword and a German Nazi Youth Dagger, that he made it back to the States with prior to his discharge; the P38 was stolen from his duffle bag by a "fellow" soldier when he was in the head at a train station during a transfer of assigned posts here in the States. I worked with a WWII vet who still had a Luger he brought back from WWII as a souvenier. As it was, my dad only ended up with his dress uniform, his dogtags, his medals, and a lot of pictures and an old Army "Stars and Stripes" newspaper, that I have in my possession as we speak, dated 1945. And the aforementioned sword and dagger.

I don't think I'd ever get in trouble over the "United States Property" marking on my old Black Beauty, the Colt... she's 88 years old, functional though she is, and was transferred legally. But, it is an interesting little thread of history. I may, when I get better, try to do some research on my specific one.

Y'all all take care and be safe.
Mick

[Rio Vista Slim]

Mick,
My mother was an Army nurse during World War II, and one of her assignments was in a field hospital in France after D-Day. They treated not only the Allied wounded, but wounded Germans as well. She came home with some fascinating things that the German soldiers gave to her.
When I was a kid, and we neighborhood youngsters would play "war", we would put on the German insignia that she had brought home. Luckily, we didn't destroy any of it, and she still has all of those old items. Some of them are quite collectible today.

My great-uncle John came home from World War I with everything that had been issued to him except his rifle............go figure!

I would think that a lot of the "United States Property" pistols were released by the DCM/CMP programs. Others were "appropriated". The isolated case that came up on this forum about one member's unfortunate run-in with the law is the first case that I've heard about concerning old G.I. pistols.

That said, I wouldn't want to show up at a gun show with a "United States Property" M-9 as trading material!!!!!!!!!!!! :scared:

[Mick_In_Texas]

Mick,
My mother was an Army nurse during World War II, and one of her assignments was in a field hospital in France after D-Day. They treated not only the Allied wounded, but wounded Germans as well. She came home with some fascinating things that the German soldiers gave to her.
When I was a kid, and we neighborhood youngsters would play "war", we would put on the German insignia that she had brought home. Luckily, we didn't destroy any of it, and she still has all of those old items. Some of them are quite collectible today.

My great-uncle John came home from World War I with everything that had been issued to him except his rifle............go figure!

I would think that a lot of the "United States Property" pistols were released by the DCM/CMP programs. Others were "appropriated". The isolated case that came up on this forum about one member's unfortunate run-in with the law is the first case that I've heard about concerning old G.I. pistols.

That said, I wouldn't want to show up at a gun show with a "United States Property" M-9 as trading material!!!!!!!!!!!! :scared:

Hee hee, Rio...
You bring up memories of a "better time"... Like you, I used to play "war" with my dad's German Youth dagger, his SS Sword, and a carload of Army surplus items, with my friends. We were trained and taught how to properly handle the "weapons", including our bb guns and such... and never had injuries from playing with them.

Well, I have no desire whatsoever, ever, to "trade" or sell my Black Beauty. I've got her right here. She's got that "United States Property" stamped on her frame, left side; but, I know she's legit. One of the armorers who handled her was Navy vet, Viet Nam era; all he had to say was, she was functional and he was proud I got her. Didn't get her cleaned and lubed this weekend, but, will. She's a beauty. I love having her. Love it. She's even better than my stepgrandad's old Smith .38 Special revolver; talked to my dad this afternoon, and he was still excited over her. Like Tom, OD, and Hunter... he's been there, done that, in the military.

YOU and yours take care and be safe.
Mick

[Old Trooper]

How did all these weapons get on the civilian market. I personally had a little bit of a problem when I was assigned in Germany. Took a M1911 (not A1) that was US Property marked over with me on my orders. Was stupid enough to sell it while I was there to another GI. He came back to me later and sold it back to me as apparently I, because of the original orders, could get it back, but to all others it was a "war trophy" and non-importable on a Form 6. Not learning my lesson I again stupidly sold it agan (serial # 441401)!

It does beg the question, how do you tell if a M1911A1 is legal to own or a case of stolen property? Here in Iraq, I have seen several of these that had obviously entered the market from other than legal sales (marked for rebuild at Anniston in 1975, long after sales stopped). Anybody got any ideas where to look?

[joninKS]

This question has been nagging me for some time. In looking thru some old copies of American Rifleman these pistols were sold on the open market in (I believe) the late 50's. Some as low as $40. My 1911 (Springfield frame, Rem UMC slide) was made in 1918. No arsenal marks indicating refurbishing. I bought it from a WW2 vet who was a friend of mine. He said he acquired the pisrol in the late 40's and didn't answer my question on how he came to own it. FWIW there was a WW1 US government contract mag in the well. Getting back to the initial poster's question how these came to be seperated from the Army, maybe some were sold thru sporting goods stores and other retail establishments, who may have bid on them directly with the Government. My friend the WW2 vet has passed on and I will probably never know the story behind mine. Mores the pity.

[ltdave]

my 45 R-R 45, was sold thru some importer. i dont remember who the distributor was. i got it in 1989...

i spent an extra $30 for a 'Colt' but unbeknownst to me at the time, i got an R-R frame with a Colt slide...

ive got the receipt somewhere for it. paid all of $259 plus shipping and handling. my buddy did the FFL for me for free...

david

[joninKS]

I've been trying to remember the time frame that these pistols were advertised for sale on the open market. I have a small collection of the American Rifle magazine, spotty as to dates but covering the periods 1949-1980's. Ive been leafing thru them trying to find the ads. It must go back a few years as they were priced at $39.95 with genuine Colts $5.00 extra. The supply must have dried up very quickly.

The U.S. Government kept a list of all the pistols which were stolen. I read on another thread that they gave up trying to find these, and the lists were destroyed in 1960. Probably this opened up an increase in availability, no lists, no prosecution. I am just brainstorming on this but may jog someone's memory about those ads.

[RayP.]

I can remember 45's being sold as far back as in the 1939/1940 era,even though I was a youngster at the time,I used to cut out all the gun pics I could find in those old mags,ads and so on.mostly all 1911's,only a very few A1's,I couldn't say if they were so called "surplus" or not(doubt that existed),don't know if "Lend Lease" existed in WW1 era,have no idea where they came from,as far as after WWll,they were all over the place,everyone in family had a 45 or two,I had a new never fired Ithaca that I took in the Arrmy with me.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y137/RFPJr/AEform11.jpg

Gen. Matthew B. Ridgway was Commander-in-Chief U.S. Army Europe til end of 1952,a reg. G.I.'s General,Combat Infantry Badge(one of very few Staff Officers to earn it),Purple hearts,etc;all earned the hard way(he liked his guns.A Gen. Gruenther(splg?)replaced him,I don't know if he changed regs on personal weapons or not.

RayP.

[joninKS]

Eureka! Eureka! I found an ad in the July, 1963 issue of "Guns" magazine advertising 1911's and 1911A1's. Ad indicated they were first on the market I think. The 1911's were $34.95 and the A1's were $3 more. I scanned the page and would have included it here but don't know how to post pictures on this website. The prices will make you just want to puke. The date of 1963 would go along with another posting on another thread which indicated that the lists of "stolen guns" were destroyed in 1960. So now we know how so many of the marked United States Property came into civilian hands. The seller, Hunters Lodge out of Alexandria VA was a big dealer in arms in that period, and ran double page spreads in most of the leading gun magazines.

[RayP.]

I used to dream about old prices,but If prices($34.95/$37.95)were put in perspective for 1963 and 2006 then they were comparatively pretty much the same price,that was anywhere from a half weeks net pay for some and probably close to a full weeks net pay for a lot more,it's a lot like the Colt Single Action pistols of 1873,sold for around $14.95 from the factory and that would have been a half months pay for a working person in those days,the biggest difference of the time was how many good collectible 45's were sold at the reg. price during those days,if it were not for the internet,collectable 45's would not be bringing such high prices now,with out the internet peolpe with 60 to 90yr. old dresser drawer pistols had no way of knowing their true value and did not have very much chance of getting near(or full) value when selling.

RayP.

[The Wizard]

Anyone heard of "combat loss". Lots of equipment was taken off the books (property book that is) with that stateman. I had two M1911A1's in my arms room that were not on the books. But being a new 2Lt I did the right thing and the paper work to turn them in. I suspect the supply sergeant was waiting for the right time to take them home.

[Andrew]

I remember my father telling me a friend of his mailed pieces of M1's and a revolver he got from an Australian back to his parents from Hawaii. I would imagine he wasn't the only one.

[TriumphGT6]

I've got a [mandatory non-1911 alert] S&W 1917 revolver [/alert] that's been refinished by a prior owner, who was concerned enough about the "US property" marking on the barrel's underside, to have filed it off. Interestingly, the US marking and serial number is missing from the bottom of the frame as well, although all the numbers match elsewhere. I wonder what he was thinking....

[MajorD]

The individual mentioned at the start of the thread got in trouble because of NY's very restrictive laws on handgun possession not because the gun said us property on it. also prior to WW2 it was acceptable for an officer to purchase a pistol from gov't stores for his personal use