Lead fouling

[Dr. Dickie]

Okay, I am sure that anyone that re-loads with lead has a secret method of getting that stuff out of the bore. A quick cleaning with a toranaodo brush and a brass brush gets about 98% out, but there is always some left right at the beginning of the lands in the barrel. I scrub and scrub, swab and wait, then scrub again, but that stuff is s l o w at coming off. Anyone got any tricks to get the lead out! (pun intended).

[TriumphGT6]

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_151_25/ai_70380679 and http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_148_24/ai_64565412. I've used both, and both work.

The Lewis tool will leave a bit of lead in the corners of the grooves. The Outers tool will remove even that, but it is slo-o-o-w.

Good luck!

[Frank]

First, I remember reading once that the toranaodo brush can be hard on the bore. I don't know that's true, but out of an abundance of caution, I stopped using them.

My normal procedure is to first use the Lewis tool. I then use MPro7 Bore Cleaner. It's a gel so it stays put. I saturate a bronze brush with the cleaner, scrub the bore with ten to twenty strokes and then add some more of the cleaner. I'll then leave it for half an hour or so. Then I'll spray some MPro7 cleaner down the bore, scrub with the bronze brush a little more and then go to patches to get everything out. That seems to work.

With the MPro7, dwell time seems to be key. I believe that it works as a low surface tension wetting agent and will get under and lift off deposits. It just needs time to work.

I've also had some success with JB Bore Cleaner. It's a fine, abrasive paste. The story is that the abrasive elements are harder than lead but softer than steel so they don't scratch the bore. It does need to be mixed with some ElbowGrease.

Good luck.

DVC

[Hunter]

I have always used Hopps #9 and a brass bore brush. It is very slow to remove all the lead but after enough effort I seem to get it pretty darn clean. I have heard after you are wrapping up shooting lead if you shoot some FMJ through that will began to remove the lead. but I am not sure that would not be hard on the bore. Someone else here might know better.

[Geo.]

Try a copper Chore-Boy cleaning pad. I simply cut a piece off and wrap it around a brush and have at it. There is another product like the Chore-Boy, except that it looks like spirals of stainless steel. I have one and it is soft, very soft, and it does not scratch the bore. It is used like the Chore-Boy.

I have seen generic products like these in copper, bronze, and in stainless. I think that all of them would work fine.

This is more effective than my Lewis Lead Remover, bore brushes, various solvents, and is safer than using Mercury.

Mercury will amalgamate the lead and make it easy to get rid of with a brush and tight patch. However, the Mercury is hard to handle safely and the amalgamated lead is then hard to handle safely and get rid of properly.

Dental picks and mirrors are easy to use and the right shapes can be used to scrape alongside the land edge. It is a little tedious, but with a good light and a little perseveration, it will work on some of the toughest stuff.

Hope that helps.

[LeeCreekKid]

I use the Chore-Boy method and it works great.

[Dr. Dickie]

Thanks all.
Frank:
I have used (and still am) the M-Pro7 stuff. It is great stuff; however, even after leaving it on there for over an hour, then scrubbing serveral times, that dang lead is still in the very start of the bore. Right now more of the M-Pro & stuff has been on back-order from Midway for over a month now, I may have to find something else (Brownells wants $20 more a gallon than Midway by the way). As far as the toranodo brush, I am sticking with it. Barrels are made of hardened steel, if I can wear that barrel done with that brush, I imagine it will take a lllooooonnnggg time, and the cleaning it does is so superior it will be worth buying a new barrel in 20 years :D .

TriumphGT6:
Oh yeah, electropolishing will certaintly work, but like you said way too slow for me. However if you need to remove tarnish on silver, I can tell you a magic way that amaze your friends--all you need is aluminum foil and baking soda--works on the same principal as your lead remover. But you are right, that is probably the best way to make sure that it is all gone.

Geo.:
I'll try the Chore-Boy pads. Kinda like a industrial strength brass brush.

Hunter:
I have heard the same thing, but I am with you. Seems like it might just really force the lead into the bore as much as clean it out the other end. Might have to try it one day, but I am concerned with what the long term effects might be.

Thanks all. Shoot well and stay safe.

[topcat39]

Dental picks and mirrors are easy to use and the right shapes can be used to scrape alongside the land edge. It is a little tedious, but with a good light and a little perseveration, it will work on some of the toughest stuff.

I use a similar technique using a small flat blade jewelers screwdriver to scrape out the lead; easier on a 1911/semi auto where the barrel can be removed for access, harder with a revolver.

Some say you need to brush at least the number of shots taken: 50 shots = 50 strokes with a brush saturated in solvent, 100 shots = 100 strokes, etc.

I agree that using a brush will not harm or wear out a barrel, provided that damage is not caused - for example, trying to stop and reverse direction with the brush part-way through the barrel. Even stainless steel brushes should not harm a bore if used properly, use lots of solvent.

Military armorers use a solvent containing 28% ammonia to remove fouling, including lead. The barrel is plugged at one end, solvent poured in, plug the other end, wait a bit (not over an hour to avoid damage, less time if it cleans the fouling), pour out the solvent and brush the bore to clean out the fouling. Sweet's 7.62 Bore Cleaner is a consumer-grade cleaner containing 5% ammonia that can be found fairly easily. If using Sweet's be careful not to get the solvent on plastic and wood as they can be harmed.

My $0.02 worth!

[1911Tuner]

I use a magful or two of jacketed ammo at the end of a long session with lead bullets. Makes gettin' the last of it pretty easy...which I rarely bother with any more than about every 2500-3,000 rounds.

Yeah, I know. I've heard the concerns over the jacketed rounds forcing the lead into the pores of the steel in the bore. :rolleyes: But...and think about it...If it's a perceived problem with jacketed bullets, it's a problem with lead bullets, too. The lead fouling doesn't know what kinda bullet is mashin' on it, and neither does the barrel.

Anyway, if it's a concern...Just use a good penetrating lube/cleaner like Kroil.
It works its way under the mashed-out lead and loosens it up. Let it soak in overnight, make a few passes with a dry .50 caliber black powder brush(for .45 caliber pistols)...followed with solvent on same, drags it right out.
Patch dry...Use a fresh patch dampened with the Kroil until next trip.
Patch dry and go.

Me? I'm pretty much like Brian Enos. Nothin' much goes down my barrels these days except bullets. A little lead in the bore acts as a lubricant, and forestalls a lot of the wear that comes with a steady diet of jacketed bullets.

[steph]

Would ed's red be effective in removing lead fouling? Presently, I only use Hoppe's #9 to clean my pistol and remove the lead fouling, followed it up with a pick to take out stubborn lead. I might go for ed's red soon.
Thanks
Steph

[robertbank]

If you go to Chor Boy copper pads make sure they are 100% copper pads. Pads that are steel with a thin copper coating can harm your bore.

If you are casting your own bullets make sure they are sized to a minimum of .452. IF your guns bore is .452 then size to .453 or .454. You will find your leading decreases significantly.

As it turns out my four .45acp pistols all have bores of .451 and sizing bullets to .452 works for me. My bullets are cast from wheelweights, water quenched. I use a soft lube. This combination has eliminated all my leading in my .45acp guns as well as my 9MM autos. The latter I size to .357. Sizing them less ran me into leading problems.

Take Care

[gottripletsNC]

I I have heard after you are wrapping up shooting lead if you shoot some FMJ through that will began to remove the lead. .

hunter I too have heard this, and it does make a difference, but you have to get a FMJ that has a full jacketed bullet, most FMJ's are lead on the back, the part that is in the casing. So you haven't changed much, because that will still foul in the barrel some.

[Hunter]

I think you are right on. I have now been shooting a few 230 ball through my 1911 after a hundred or so of 185 LSWC and it seems to help remove right much fowling. Most of the 230 ball I load it totally jacketed.

[robertbank]

Here are two responses from Felix over on the Cast Bullet Forum first his recomendation then his explanation>

"Shoot, or ramrod, lead boolits as slow as possible until barrel is clean."

and his explanation.

"lead would rather stick to lead than to steel. Steel will shear off lead, so that is why you want the slowest speed possible. The more leaded the barrel, the more shots will be necessary. You don't want to iron on the lead with jacketed bullets. Jacketed can PUSH out the lead if the jacketed bullet had sharp corners. This is why the wire mesh, steel or copper, stuff works. When the lead is more than normal in a gun, especially a revolter, I like to use the circular wire stainless steel brushes. Throw them away when the corners become "too" sharp from wear. Use normal solvents with these brushes. ... felix

What Felix doesn't know about shooting cast bullets is likely not worth knowing. Hr is a great gentleman who is always ready to assist. I still use the Chor Boy method for what little lead I encounter.

Take Care
__________________

[Shoot_for_fun]

What is the hardness of your cast lead bullets that are leading up the barrel? What is the alloy? I shoot a lot of hard cast bullets and leading is not an issue, they are sized to .452 and I am using 4.7 grains of Bullseye. The alloy is 92% lead, 6% antimony and 2% tin. Just curious, thanks for any feedback you can provide.

[robertbank]

I should point out in my experience having the right diameter of bulet has as much or more do do with the effects of leading than the type of alloy.

Take Care

[Baldy]

I carry a bore snake and shooters choice in my range bag. When I am done and while the barrel is still warm I run the bore snake with some shooters choice through it both ways. I put more on the snake and leave it in the gun till I get home. I then take a brass brush dipped in shooters choice and scrub it out a few times. A few patches of Hoppe's #9 and she is clean. A little oil and your done with the barrel. The rest of the gun I use #9 and oil. :D

[Gammon]

I found a winning combination in Shooter's Choice Lead and Powder Solvent and a SS bore brush (not a tornado, but straight, sharp bristles), and I shoot lead almost exclusively, with the exception of some matches. All of the pistols I was using were fitted with Bar Sto barrels which showed no ill effects from the SS brush. Then I tried my "winning combination" on a stock chrome moly Para barrel. What a mistake! The SS bore brush badly scored the Para barrel. After a bit of research, Bar Sto was the only barrel maker I could find that would guarantee their barrels to stand up to a SS bore brush.
As a result of this little disaster, I have switched to Chore Boy pads which work well, though not as well as a SS brush. Also, I have found M Pro 7 to work well in removing lead.

[danang]

Chore Boy first, then another brass brush with a 2x2" piece of "Lead Away" cloth or it's equivalent. Several companies market the cloth with various names. What ever it is, five or six strokes with the Lead Away, then some solvent to clean that up leaves a slick bore faster than you can tell it.

[enough's enough]

I've been having trouble with my HK barrels leading. Today I tried JB Bore compound and in 15 minutes I had 2 barrels that look like mirrors. The inside is so perfect with I sent and oily patch through them the oil just kind of beaded up instead of looking like an oil slick. I've never seen barrels this clean before, even with a lope they look incredible.

[TheGerk]

I’ve had some success in reducing the lead build up by cleaning the bore with Flitz after the original de-leading. It just doesn’t seem to build up in the bore as bad.
I still have to use the Lewis tool on the forcing cone in a revolver.
Good Luck

[Gammon]

Be careful. I use JB bore paste to lap slides to frames. This stuff is harder than your barrel.

[AF First Sergeant]

Some good stuff here. I think the issue is not solved by one thing alone. I shoot lead at fairly low velocities. Iv'e been using Hoppes Elite (same as Mpro7) it "seasons" metal (or seems to anyway) I have been experimenting with Berry's bullets. Just a bit more cost than lead without the fouling. I also don't see harm in running a mag full of jacketed down the pipe. looking back, all I've done is repaet some of the stuff the very knowedgeable members have allready indicated.

I'd hit the issue from different directions (more than one solution) untill you have a plan you can live with time and money wise. All the previous info is good. Each shooter needs his or her own combination.

[Gammon]

Just got back from the range, time to clean the Para P-16. This gun had just digested about 600 rounds of lead swcs at 1175 fps. The bore looked like ****. After running a couple of dry patches through the bore, things started to look better. Removing the powder and other fouling showed that the leading was confined to the first inch or so of the barrel. Sprayed it full of M Pro 7 and waited about 10 minutes, then scrubbed the bore with some "Chore Boy". The barrel, was almost clean, so I repeated the procedure to finish the job. The whole procedure took me about 30 minutes, most of which was spent waiting for the solvent to do its job. I think this is a small price to pay to shoot lead bullets that I can get for 1/2 the price of jacketed.

[Geo.]

When I buy a new revolver, I clean the livin' snot out of the barrel, and that might include the electro-reverse plating process like Outers' Foul-Out. After that is done, I polish the bore with Corbins's (the people that make bullet making dies) abrasive bore cleaner. It is a synthetic sapphire polishing compound and slicks up the steel to the point that further leading is reduced. Love that stuff, especially on a felt bob tip like sold by Brownell's.

[Gammon]

Just got back from the range, time to clean the Para P-16. This gun had just digested about 600 rounds of lead swcs at 1175 fps. The bore looked like ****. After running a couple of dry patches through the bore, things started to look better. Removing the powder and other fouling showed that the leading was confined to the first inch or so of the barrel. Sprayed it full of M Pro 7 and waited about 10 minutes, then scrubbed the bore with some "Chore Boy". The barrel, was almost clean, so I repeated the procedure to finish the job. The whole procedure took me about 30 minutes, most of which was spent waiting for the solvent to do its job. I think this is a small price to pay to shoot lead bullets that I can get for 1/2 the price of jacketed.

My mistake. 1075, not 1175 fps.

[nick50471]

I have spent a lot of time cleaning the lead from my barrels. When we designed a ultrasonic parts washer at my work I decided to try it. I put my barrel in a small parts basket set the tank temperature to 150F and twenty minutes later it looks like new. the solvent used in the tank is a mild degreaser. I have seen small ultrasonic washers in Brownells but the are spendy. I'll use our lab machine for free.

[pa_guns]

Hi

Industrial strength ultrasonic cleaners often are *way* higher power than the stuff you get for home use. Power density is what does the work and a 400 watt unit does a lot more than a 1/2 watt unit.

Bob

[nick50471]

Sorry to be nit-picky. Power is a small factor in ultrasonic cleaning. Power, temperature, time, solvent and tank size all play a mojor role. Not everyone can afford a $20,000 ultrasonic washer. If you buy a small $400 one from Brownells, use a good solvent and pre-heat it, it'll work fine. May take a little longer but still will work. Most people would have trouble justifying $400 to clean a gun.
I'll make everyone with lead problems a deal send me all your guns and I'll clean them for you. LOL

[Gammon]

Sorry to be nit-picky. Power is a small factor in ultrasonic cleaning. Power, temperature, time, solvent and tank size all play a mojor role. Not everyone can afford a $20,000 ultrasonic washer. If you buy a small $400 one from Brownells, use a good solvent and pre-heat it, it'll work fine. May take a little longer but still will work. Most people would have trouble justifying $400 to clean a gun.
I'll make everyone with lead problems a deal send me all your guns and I'll clean them for you. LOL

Ultrasonic cleaners are becoming more available and cheaper as time goes by. Do you have any specs on a cleaner that would remove leading in the same way that your expensive one did? Sooner or later such a machine might be available for reasonable money.

[Dr. Dickie]

Just got back from the range, time to clean the Para P-16. This gun had just digested about 600 rounds of lead swcs at 1175 fps. The bore looked like ****. I think this is a small price to pay to shoot lead bullets that I can get for 1/2 the price of jacketed.

Now that I learned the ChoreBoy trick, I agree with you. I was getting horrible leading in the first 1" or so of the barrel and I was running about 700 fps.
I did run into a problem a couple of weeks ago. First magazine shot (LRN) were straight and true, second set dropped a bit, third were dropping horribly. Now part of that may have been me, but I had seen this too many times to think it was all me. I think (a bad way for me to start a sentence) what was happening was the barrel was getting leaded up, and since I was running so slow, that slowed them down more. In fact, slowed them down enough to really screw up my shots.
Since I only chrony the first 5 shots I take, I would not see this.
This Friday I will find out if that is the case (also I got 2000 plated bullets to try for a while).
Oh by the way, some shooters choice lead remover on the Chore boy really works (at least for me.).
Shoot straight.

[robertbank]

The problem with leading in the first 1" of the barrel would be an easy solve IF the commercial bullets were lubed with soft lube. Unfortunately they don't primarily because soft lube won't stay in the bullets when shipped and it is or can be sticky. I guess the consumer wants neat and clean.

All of my problems with this type of leading disappeared when I went to a soft lube (I now make my own using the Felix Lube formula (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=543).
Unfortunately due to time or desire many shooters don't cast their own bullets.

Pesonally I use the Chor Boy without solvents intially when cleaning my guns. I then run some FP 10 (Shooters Choice), down the barrel. Saves some time.

I am afraid I don't understand why one would need ultra sonic cleaners and the like. For all the trouble it would appear some guys are going to or wanting to go to it would be easier just to take up casting. :D A great extension of our sport, much less expensive than buying commercial and you can control what your favourite 1911 eats.

As an aside I don't get any leading when I shoot my 45-08 rounds consisting of 200 Gr water quenched LSWC at 1350 FPS.

Take Care

Bob

[pa_guns]

Hi

A buddy here bought a house last year. All was going well up to the point they noticed a 100 amp (yes 100) 220 volt outlet in the garage. The question got asked and the answer was "my husband cast bullets in the garage". Mind you it's the *garage*, not the living room we are talking about.

Yes, at 100A it's not a normal home setup, the guy supplied ammo to the State Police ....

Next step, his wife starts reading up on lead in the environment. In come the test guys to swab everything down. First pass they blow the swab process completely. Second pass they (surprise) find lead on the floor in the garage and inside the house. Third pass they clear the inside of house of any problem. Maybe somebody should have fired these guys ...

Now for the guys in the bunny suits. In they come to clean the garage. First cleaning pass is done. In come the testers (same idiots). Still have lead in the garage. Second cleaning pass and in come the testers. By now the closing on the house is three days away. The clean bill does not arrive until the day of the closing ...

If you do cast and go to sell the house. Get the tests done *before* you put the house on the market. None of the stuff above was very expensive and the guy was in the casting business. It has to be a "worst case" situation.

Bob

[robertbank]

Easier just to cast outdoors.

Take Care

Bob

[pa_guns]

Hi

How long is the outdoor casting season up there in the North Country? :D

Bob

[nick50471]

I am afraid I don't understand why one would need ultra sonic cleaners and the like. For all the trouble it would appear some guys are going to or wanting to go to it would be easier just to take up casting.

Robert,
I am a 33 year old father of two girls. I barely get enough time to shoot and reload. The health risks with lead and small children are another concern. Casting my own is out of the question. There is no trouble removing the barrel from my 1911 and dropping into a tank for 20 minutes while I work. Not everyone has an Ultrasonic washer but I use it because it does an amazing job. I also remove the grips and place the complete pistol into the washer. Don't even need to take it apart. If it was cost effective everyone would have one.



Ultrasonic cleaners are becoming more available and cheaper as time goes by. Do you have any specs on a cleaner that would remove leading in the same way that your expensive one did? Sooner or later such a machine might be available for reasonable money.

The spec on the washer we have is 220V / 3PH / 60HZ. 1500 Watt Ultrasonic generator, three transducers, heated 75 gallon tank, agitation bed and solvent filter. This machine was designed to clean engine blocks. The wattage is dependant on how large the tank is and specific gravity of the solvent used. A much smaller washer would work exactly the same. Smaller tank - lower wattage. I have seen some as small as a coffee cup used for jewelry. Very low wattage. Theoretically these would work. You would only be able to clean half you barrel at a time though. As I have said this is an expensive option.

[pa_guns]

Hi

You are running 20 watts per gallon. That's a fairly healthy delivered power density, especially if you put an engine block in to displace a reasonable amount of fluid.

Bob

[robertbank]

Terrace is just south of the Alaskan panhandle, 130K in from the coast. Our winters are quite mild compared to, say the prairies at the same latitude. Our snow comes and goes most winters with goodly amount of rain. I cast pretty much all year round. When it gets below 15F I come inside and lube bullets. :D When you are out of the wind, as I am, 15F is quite pleasant with a light jacket on and warm boots.

We have much warmer winters than say Michigan or the N.E. US. We don't call it "Beautifull British Columbia" for no reason.

Further south Vancoouver seldom gets snow over the winter but man does it rain, much the same as Seattle.

Take Care

Bob

ps No snakes of Aligators either. ;)

[pa_guns]

Hi

I have spent some time up around your part of the country. It is beautiful and as you mention the weather is amazingly mild. I can see how you could cast outdoors just about all year round.

I do seem to remember it raining more than just a tiny little bit :D and there was the odd bear or three wandering around ....

Bob

[robertbank]

Rain you say rain. We have a family from South Africa who suffer from the desease that involves severe allergy to the sun. No joke, apparently sun exposure will kill them over a short period of time. The whole family suffers from it. They emigrated to Pr. Rupert on the coast, due west of here. Pr. Rupert gets the least sunshine of any city of size in North America apparently. Rains there like 500 days a year, well maybe an exageration but you get the idea.

We had a very dry summer following a very dry winter last year and the forecast is for another dry winter (Probably go down as the wettest on record) but there you go.

Now back to removing lead.

Take Care

Bob

[nick50471]

You are running 20 watts per gallon. That's a fairly healthy delivered power density, especially if you put an engine block in to displace a reasonable amount of fluid.

Not sure where you are going with this. 20 watts/gal is a very low number by comparison. The smaller units made by L&R are 250 or more watts/gal. The unit we manufacture works well. Everyone at work uses the lab machine for jewelry, rocks, guns, engine parts and whatever else they can fit into the tank. It works and it sells not sure what more you need.

Nick

[whelen97]

This almost sounds too easy, but I have been using a 'Lead-Away' cloth, which has been cut up into patches, and it works pretty well to get the lead out. After a reasonable cleaning with your cleaner of choice and a bronze brush, dry the bore and then scrub the bore with a a few 'lead-away' patches (the first one will probably be pretty dirty after a few swipes) and you are done. The directions say the cloth can take off bluing, so beware. A bit of Tetra-lube and the job is done. It works better than scrubbing, in my opinion.

I also pull a boresnake through the barrel, with some sort of oil, ballistol, or lube on it every few hundred rounds, which may help to keep the bore from getting too shaggy and decrease the buildup.


Whelen

[Gammon]

Hi

A buddy here bought a house last year. All was going well up to the point they noticed a 100 amp (yes 100) 220 volt outlet in the garage. The question got asked and the answer was "my husband cast bullets in the garage". Mind you it's the *garage*, not the living room we are talking about.

Yes, at 100A it's not a normal home setup, the guy supplied ammo to the State Police ....

Next step, his wife starts reading up on lead in the environment. In come the test guys to swab everything down. First pass they blow the swab process completely. Second pass they (surprise) find lead on the floor in the garage and inside the house. Third pass they clear the inside of house of any problem. Maybe somebody should have fired these guys ...

Now for the guys in the bunny suits. In they come to clean the garage. First cleaning pass is done. In come the testers (same idiots). Still have lead in the garage. Second cleaning pass and in come the testers. By now the closing on the house is three days away. The clean bill does not arrive until the day of the closing ...

If you do cast and go to sell the house. Get the tests done *before* you put the house on the market. None of the stuff above was very expensive and the guy was in the casting business. It has to be a "worst case" situation.

Bob

100 amps is a lot of power. I run two Magma Bullet Masters (2400 bullets per hour each), a luber/sizer with collator (4000 bullets per hour), a compressor, and a heater for a 12x24 shed on a 30 amp service.

[Gammon]

Robert,
I am a 33 year old father of two girls. I barely get enough time to shoot and reload. The health risks with lead and small children are another concern. Casting my own is out of the question. There is no trouble removing the barrel from my 1911 and dropping into a tank for 20 minutes while I work. Not everyone has an Ultrasonic washer but I use it because it does an amazing job. I also remove the grips and place the complete pistol into the washer. Don't even need to take it apart. If it was cost effective everyone would have one.





The spec on the washer we have is 220V / 3PH / 60HZ. 1500 Watt Ultrasonic generator, three transducers, heated 75 gallon tank, agitation bed and solvent filter. This machine was designed to clean engine blocks. The wattage is dependant on how large the tank is and specific gravity of the solvent used. A much smaller washer would work exactly the same. Smaller tank - lower wattage. I have seen some as small as a coffee cup used for jewelry. Very low wattage. Theoretically these would work. You would only be able to clean half you barrel at a time though. As I have said this is an expensive option.

I just checked out the Brownells catalog. They have several ultrasonic cleaners from $400 to several thousand dollars. It is interesting to note that NONE of the cleaners listed claimed to remove lead. Apparently you need a more powerful and sophisticated model to de-lead a barrel. Too bad, I always liked the idea of an ultrasonic cleaner but could never justify the cost. De-leading the barrel would have been sufficient justification to drop $400 or so on a cleaner.

[aphco]

This may sound stupid but it is just ignorance.
What does lead fouling look like?? Is it possible any where in the barrel or only on the breech end?

I recently cleaned my LTW commander after having shot a mixture of lead and copper (?) jacketed bullets. This gun has a new barrel, less than a year old, and less than 1000 rounds through it.

After cleaning the barrel with a bore brush and Hoppes # 9 I noticed what appears to be pitting just inside the muzzle. I tried scrubbing some more thinking that I had missed some "junk" but it would not come off. I did not want to scrape the barrel for fear of gouging or scarring it. My initial thought was that the new barrel I was sold was either not new or defective and some how it had started to rust.

I was really puzzeled until today when I looked at my GM 1991 and saw the same conditons at the muzzel. This is also a lightly fired gun and I can't believe that both are pitted in the same place although they were both fired at the range on the same day with the same mixture of ammo.

After reading some of these posts I am wondering if what I am seeing is actualy lead ( or copper) fouling. Do these conditions look and feel like pitting? I used a small dental pick to gently "feel" these blemishes but I do not know what I am looking at. I would feel mighty foolish to go back to the gun shop demanding a new barrel and finding out it is only a maintenance issue.:)

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[robertbank]

Sounds like lead fouling to me. Take a chor boy 100% copper pad and wrap some mesh around an old cleaning brush. Run it up and down in the barrel five or six times. This will remove any lead fouling in short order.I suspect your pitting will be on your bench. Please do not use a dental pick on your barrel or you will be paying for a new barrel in short order.

Take Care

Bob

[pa_guns]

Hi

I second the motion to avoid anything made out of steel to clean the stuff out. Some people get lucky, I never seem to.

If you are going totaly nuts try a piece of *copper* wire as a pick. Just make sure it's not some of the steel core copper coated stuff.

Bob

[aphco]

I guess I gave the wrong impression. I wasn't trying to clean it out with the pick but rather feel if there was pitting. I didn't use enough pressure to either determine what it was or scratch the barrel.

The question remains: can you have fouling anywhere on the barrel or only at the breech? Both barrels are "poifect" everywhere but near the muzzle.

[pa_guns]

Hi

You can have lead fouling anywhere in the barrel. It simply depends on what's going on. Lead fouling near the muzzle commonly gets blamed on "ran out of lube".

It is very tempting to attack spots and pits with a pick. Been there done that. I was not responding to anything you had said, only to a guess at what might be next.

Bob

[aphco]

Thanks for the help and the advice to all. Chore boy sounds sensible, I'll give it a try tomorrow.

What's next is bedtime!! :)

[Velocette]

'Tuner' is correct, several rounds of jacketed ammo as the last of a series will remove most of the lead from the bore very effectively.
Been doing it for many years with a lotta matches won along the way.

Roger

[Gammon]

I have been told that firing jacketed heads through a lead fouled barrel will make the leading harder to remove. My experience has been that this is pure ** , but I wonder where the myth started.

[nick50471]

I just checked out the Brownells catalog. They have several ultrasonic cleaners from $400 to several thousand dollars. It is interesting to note that NONE of the cleaners listed claimed to remove lead. Apparently you need a more powerful and sophisticated model to de-lead a barrel. Too bad, I always liked the idea of an ultrasonic cleaner but could never justify the cost. De-leading the barrel would have been sufficient justification to drop $400 or so on a cleaner.

The Ultrasonic I use at work has a much lower rating than the Brownells version. The lead is removed easily along with anything else. The only difference between the two is ours has a bed that agitates. We buy the Ultrasonic generator and transducers from Ultrasonic Power Corp 1-800-575-0168. Give them a call and they will answer any questions you have about ultrasonic and what they will do.

[canuck63]

you have to get a FMJ that has a full jacketed bullet, most FMJ's are lead on the back, the part that is in the casing


What about lead bullets electrolitically jacketed with a thin layer of copper?And since sharp edges should scrape away that lead fowling,like a scalpel blade would do,what about loading a few rounds with the base of the bullet facing out?I think that the relatively sharp edges of the bullet's base would act as a snow plow and scrape the lead deposit away!
Cheers
Manny

[robertbank]

Wrap a small piece of 100% Copper Chor Boy bad around an old copper wire brush. Three or four strokes later and the lead in your barrel is out. Not sure why we want to get into chemistry when such an easy solution is at hand.

Take Care

Bob

[canuck63]

Wrap a small piece of 100% Copper Chor Boy bad around an old copper wire brush. Three or four strokes later and the lead in your barrel is out. Not sure why we want to get into chemistry when such an easy solution is at hand.

Take Care

Bob
Hi there Bob,
your solution makes a lot of sense,but I sure didn't mean to do anything weird to those poor lead beans....lead bullets coated with a thin jacket of copper after an electrolytic bath are currently available and there's no lead showing at all...that would avoid fouling the bore with more lead if jacketed bullets with exposed lead on their base are used,as one of our friends stated,even if,truth be told,how THAT lead could add to the lead already on the lands and/or grooves is beyond me!
Cheers
Manny

[Dr. Dickie]

What about lead bullets electrolitically jacketed with a thin layer of copper?And since sharp edges should scrape away that lead fowling,like a scalpel blade would do,what about loading a few rounds with the base of the bullet facing out?I think that the relatively sharp edges of the bullet's base would act as a snow plow and scrape the lead deposit away!
Cheers
Manny

The jacketed bullets are great (I am currently using a batch of Rainier 200 gr plated FN); however, they are more expensive than the lead.
Since the start of this thread, I have cleaned enough leading in my barrel, that I have finally come to the conclusion that it is simply not that big a deal. That is, once you learn the Chor-Boy pad trick, mixed with a little of the Shooters Choice Lead Remover solution. It really takes the same amount of time and energy as cleaning the barrel after shooting ball ammo, so once my plated rounds are gone, I likely will go back to straight lead.

As far a running a round with the bullet backwards, I won't do that to clean the lead out. I know that Barretta suggests that you not shoot FMJ after lead unless you clean the barrel first (excess pressures being suspected); now this is likely to be just CYA (cover your actions), but on the off chance that the lead did increase pressures, a round going backwards would most likely make it worse.
NOTE: I am not saying this would happen, I am not saying that is is crazy to do, I am not suggesting or implying anything of the sort, I am simply stating what I would do and not do.

[canuck63]

As far a running a round with the bullet backwards, I won't do that to clean the lead out. I know that Barretta suggests that you not shoot FMJ after lead unless you clean the barrel first (excess pressures being suspected); now this is likely to be just CYA (cover your actions), but on the off chance that the lead did increase pressures, a round going backwards would most likely make it worse.
NOTE: I am not saying this would happen, I am not saying that is is crazy to do, I am not suggesting or implying anything of the sort, I am simply stating what I would do and not do.

Hi Doc,
at this point I reckon that, when in doubt, we'd consider shooting a jacketed bullet backwards crazy to do in the first place, and say to ourselves(the ones who'd like to try that,I mean!) "better safe than sorry"....better using all of your stash of elbow grease than running the risk of damaging the gun and,most important,hurt yourself and the bystanders!
As a side note we'd also take into consideration that the lead alloys used in bullet making are not Blu-Tak and we ain't shooting chewing-gums down our barrel,hence the lead deposits may still be there but not to such an amount to reduce a .451 dia barrel to a .440 one!
Beretta is a world on its own...you can't purchase spare barrels (at least in Italy!) and if your gun needs a replacement barrel you've got to send/bring that nice 92 of yours at Beretta's and let them do the job...one gun one barrel, unless you own a combat combo!They've been making weapons since King Herod's was a tot yet when you call them(or write them an e-mail,for that matters!) for some info/advice more often than not looks like they don't know a particular part of their body from a hole in the ground;once I called them to ask where I was supposed to take measurement on a certain rifle part that had to be modified by them, before sending it over, and I got three different replies...and that turned into a joke at my local shooting club for months!Further;last year I needed to know the exact torque the bolts of the action of my SAKO TRG22 Sniper Rifle had to be tighten to so I wrote them(they own and distribute SAKO rifles!)...have you heard from them?Neither have I!
Sorry for the rant but what makes the 1911 so great (I bought at least six in the past three months!) is that you can have at least a dozen replies to any question you'd possibly ask...could a Berettaholic say that...I'm afraid not!
Hey...somebody's shooting at my soap-box :scared: !
Cheers

[canuck63]

As far a running a round with the bullet backwards, I won't do that to clean the lead out. I know that Barretta suggests that you not shoot FMJ after lead unless you clean the barrel first (excess pressures being suspected); now this is likely to be just CYA (cover your actions), but on the off chance that the lead did increase pressures, a round going backwards would most likely make it worse.
NOTE: I am not saying this would happen, I am not saying that is is crazy to do, I am not suggesting or implying anything of the sort, I am simply stating what I would do and not do.

Hi Doc,
at this point I reckon that, when in doubt, we'd consider shooting a jacketed bullet backwards crazy to do in the first place, and say to ourselves(the ones who'd like to try that,I mean!) "better safe than sorry"....better using all of your stash of elbow grease than running the risk of damaging the gun and,most important,hurt yourself and the bystanders!
As a side note we'd also take into consideration that the lead alloys used in bullet making are not Blu-Tak and we ain't shooting chewing-gums down our barrel,hence the lead deposits may still be there but not to such an amount to reduce a .451 dia barrel to a .440 one,even if,truth be told,even a thin layer of lubricant could dramatically increase pressures!!
Beretta is a strange world on its own though...you can't purchase spare barrels (at least in Italy!) and if your gun needs a replacement barrel you've got to send/bring that nice 92 of yours at Beretta's and let them do the job...one gun one barrel, unless you own a combat combo!They've been making weapons since King Herod's was a tot yet when you call them(or write them an e-mail,for that matters!) for some info/advice more often than not looks like they don't know a particular part of their body from a hole in the ground;once I called them to ask where I was supposed to take measurement on a certain rifle part that had to be modified by them, before sending it over, and I got three different replies...and that turned into a joke at my local shooting club for months!Further;last year I needed to know the exact torque the bolts of the action of my SAKO TRG22 Sniper Rifle had to be tighten to so I wrote them(they own and distribute SAKO rifles!)...have you heard from them?Neither have I!
Sorry for the rant but what makes the 1911 so great (I bought at least six in the past three months!) is that you can have at least a dozen replies to any question you'd possibly ask...could a Berettaholic say that...I'm afraid not!
Hey...somebody's shooting at my soap-box :scared: !
Cheers

[Gammon]

The jacketed bullets are great (I am currently using a batch of Rainier 200 gr plated FN); however, they are more expensive than the lead.
Since the start of this thread, I have cleaned enough leading in my barrel, that I have finally come to the conclusion that it is simply not that big a deal. That is, once you learn the Chor-Boy pad trick, mixed with a little of the Shooters Choice Lead Remover solution. It really takes the same amount of time and energy as cleaning the barrel after shooting ball ammo, so once my plated rounds are gone, I likely will go back to straight lead.

As far a running a round with the bullet backwards, I won't do that to clean the lead out. I know that Barretta suggests that you not shoot FMJ after lead unless you clean the barrel first (excess pressures being suspected); now this is likely to be just CYA (cover your actions), but on the off chance that the lead did increase pressures, a round going backwards would most likely make it worse.
NOTE: I am not saying this would happen, I am not saying that is is crazy to do, I am not suggesting or implying anything of the sort, I am simply stating what I would do and not do.

I do over 90% of my shooting with lead bullets and am completely satisfied with them, with the exception of the lube smoke. In practice sessions this smoke is acceptable, but it can become a problem in a match. I keep some FMJ and plated bullets on hand for match use.

The "Chore Boy" pads do an excellent job in removing lead, but a harsh, nasty SS bore brush does a better job. Unfortunately, a SS bore brush can damage the bore, and some barrel MFRs warn against their use. I am in the process of ordering a couple of barrels from Bar Sto and asked them about SS bore brushes. The rep I spoke with claimed that their barrels are so hard that a SS bore brush can't damage them and that these barrels are warranteed against such damage. Food for thought when you consider your next custom barrel.

[bradg]

I use Shooters Choice Lead Remover. Swab a patch through and then a .45 cal brass brush. You may have to do it a time or two and repeat the process but it works like a charm for me. When i'm all finished I run a patch of CLP through and thats it. Takes the lead foulings out nicely