P2 supertac recoil buff?

[ErnieStu]

Any feedback from P2 and supertac folks who have opinions on the recoil buffs?
I have never used them on other 1911s and had a generally negative sense about them causing other failures. Am I all wet? My supertac came outfitted with one and I assume Baer wouldn't bother if there was a problem.
Should I remove the buff for IPSC?
Thanks.

[John]

My personal opinion is that shock buffs are a waste of money. If that little, thin, plastic piece was enough to protect your frame, JMB would have thought about it and use something for that. He didn't, and I do not see the use of such things. Maybe as a diagnostic tool for a new gun, to see if the springs are of the proper weight, but that's it.

[scooter]

My personal opinion is that shock buffs are a waste of money. If that little, thin, plastic piece was enough to protect your frame, JMB would have thought about it and use something for that. He didn't, and I do not see the use of such things. Maybe as a diagnostic tool for a new gun, to see if the springs are of the proper weight, but that's it.

If your gun is setup correctly you have NO use for shock buffshttp://forum.m1911.org/images/icons/icon4.gif

[Dirt]

5" guns can work just fine w/ them. < 5" generally won't.

My question is this; Do you really want to rely on a little piece of plastic holding up at that important moment? Not me.

If your frame fails, which is highly unlikely, send it back to Les or Bill, whomever. They'll take care of it. ;)

Listen to John.

[ErnieStu]

Thanks for the replies, this is generally my feeling too, and I've never felt the need to use buffers before.
Les seems like a practical guy...I wonder why a premium and real-world manufacturer like Baer uses these widgets on stock guns?

[Dirt]

For the same reason Bill Wilson sends his guns out w/ them. It makes you feel like they're just doing that little extra. I once asked Wilson Combat why they did and was told some people like them. Then I asked if they prefer we use them, the answer was 'not really' :butthead:

[leade45]

Since your gun came with one on, use it. Why not? If the gun runs with it so be it. Just change it out every 800 rounds or so.

[Gotti817]

Any feedback from P2 and supertac folks who have opinions on the recoil buffs?
I have never used them on other 1911s and had a generally negative sense about them causing other failures. Am I all wet? My supertac came outfitted with one and I assume Baer wouldn't bother if there was a problem.
Should I remove the buff for IPSC?
Thanks.


I, also, have a Super Tac. The first thing I did when I got it home was to remove the shok-buff. I have no use for them. Use good quality, standard pressure ammo; change your recoil spring, main spring and firing pin spring on a regular basis and your gun should last two life times.

Hope this helps.

Mike.

[Dirt]

Since your gun came with one on, use it. Why not? If the gun runs with it so be it. Just change it out every 800 rounds or so.

Because it's just one more thing to go wrong. A better guestion is why TO use them. IMHO

[leade45]

Because it's just one more thing to go wrong. A better guestion is why TO use them. IMHO

Why is that a better question?

[Dirt]

Why is that a better question?

Leade45, I'm just asking; when no gun maker really 'recommends' them, and if one were to 'break up' at the wrong time and your SOL, maybe we should be asking "why".

45, they have been known to fail and cause issues (more than on a few occasions). And it is one more part.



Respectfully :)

Bob

[leade45]

Bob, your point is well taken and I agree with you. :) I do wonder why Les puts one on his guns, however. He uses forged frames that are plenty strong. I still think that an expensive range gun (not for competition possibly) maybe deserves an extra measure of a shok buff. To each his own, I guess. I do have the history of erring on the side of caution. :(

I think using one in a gun meant for self defense or duty leaves the door open to Mr. Murphy, though. It is a part that can fail or cause failures. In my Brown the shok buff has caused zero failures in over several thousand rounds and I replace them every 500-800 rounds. I am not sure to what extent the buff will really reduce wear, but I guess at this point it does not hurt (causing failures) having it there. I do not compete in the pistol sports (I wish I could but have never gotten around to going to a match to see what it's all about) so my mindset could change if I saw a pistol breakdown during a match due to a failed shok buff. Sorry for the long post.

[ErnieStu]

Maybe I can answer my own question here.
I took the brand new P2 SuperTac to the range last week and ran 160 rounds through, all factory (Rem UMC) 230gr FMJ, using Wilson, Novak/Nighthawk, and Baer magazines.
Multiple failures (failing to lock into battery, FTE) at random intervals and magazines. Maybe due to break-in, but at day's end I field stripped the gun and found...an almost-shredded recoil buff!
After removing the buff and cleaning the gun, I ran 150 rounds of more of the same ammo this past Saturday at a practical range (lots of rapid fire/quick loads, etc) with zero failures.
I'll post a photo and range report after I get a few more rounds through.

[John]

IF that little plastic thing got smashed by 160 rounds of factory ammo, then there is something wrong with (a) the strenght of the recoil spring of the pistol or (b) the length of the spring. Please make sure that the spring is not binding when the slide is pulled all the way to the rear, and just to be on the safe side, install a new 16 lbs recoil spring in it.

[ErnieStu]

Thanks.
John, it seems like I read on this forum recently about Baer using 18 or 18.5# springs in their 5" guns, contrasted to standard 16# springs. Has anyone else here had similar problems that you know of?
I'll contact Baer and see if they have any ideas.

[ErnieStu]

Does this help any?

Recoil buff:
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c254/erniestu/Buff1.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c254/erniestu/Buff2.jpg

Also note twinned dings on back side of the guide rod, two at the base and two more at 12-o'clock on the inner surface of the rod itself:
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c254/erniestu/GuideRod.jpg

[John]

It's common knowledge that Baer guns are a bit on the tight side, when shipped. Maybe they suggest the 18.5 lbs spring to counteract the tightness. I have no idea.

[Ping Ping]

Erniestu,
Im really interested in how this gets or has gotten resolved. The damage to the buffer is odd, but the scoring on the guide rod is just plain not right. Id send (assuming you havent yet) those pics to Baer and see what they say. I dont like the looks of that atall... nope not atall
Please keep us posted on this.

[ErnieStu]

Erniestu,
Im really interested in how this gets or has gotten resolved. The damage to the buffer is odd, but the scoring on the guide rod is just plain not right. Id send (assuming you havent yet) those pics to Baer and see what they say. I dont like the looks of that atall... nope not atall
Please keep us posted on this.

I sent the guide rod photo to Baer and they told me it is normal wear...I'm not worried about it if they aren't.
They also said they favor the 18.5# springs because they feel they 'work better.' Who am I to blow against the wind?

[Ping Ping]

Thanks for the update. Nope, Im not given to arguing with Baer either. Heck, I trust my life to them everyday. I might as well accept their diagnoses.
They say anything about the buffer?

[Ping Ping]

Earniestu,

This has continued to bug me, mate. After spinning my wheels on this, Ive decided to go out on a limb Ive never crawled out onto before... Im gonna take issue with what you were told by Baer. I dont do this lightly, but IMHO, I still dont think this is right.

Let me preface, and in the process, answer a couple questions, often posed in this thread. Les Baer uses shock buffers because >90% of his buyers are shooting hand loads and/or +P ammo. A "stock" weighted recoil spring has plenty of margin for error in it to allow for most "standard" factory loads. This hardly covers the vast array of what people who are shooting at a level to need, use the potential of a Baer pistol are shooting. The buffer is there to allow the knowledgable shooter to guage the need for heavier recoil springs based on his load preferences. NOT, at least in the case of Baers, to mitigate potential frame/slide damage. I wont bore the masses with the details of what I shoot for handloads, which I get from a friend. Suffice to say, they are SWC light loads. Otherwise I shoot factory ball. I have never changed a recoil buffer in less than 2k rds and have one in one of my Baers thats been there for more than 3k.

Enough blah blah blah...

There are two possible reasons that your pistol is experiencing this and showing the violent and unacceptable results.
One is, youre using hotter ammo. I didnt read anywhere what you were shooting to break the pistol in, but if youre using handloads, check the powder levels. If youre using hot loads, they are CLEARLY too hot for the spring.
The second, which El Commandante touched on, is that the spring rate/strength is insufficient. I have never read that LBC winds and tests their own springs. They must be mass sourced. I also cant fathom that LBC, or any production house actually tests the full-travel tension of every single spring. This is why you wait 5mos to 2yrs, in some cases, for a really high end smith to rebuild and spec your pistol.

Heres where this gets uncomfortable for me... Assuming you can assure that youve used nothing but varying types of standard load, factory ammo; nothing hot... Youve managed to get a BUNK spring. This can easily happen. There are myriad ways a spring can get messed up in production, but youve read enough to know how rare it is with Baers.

To resolve this, Id either find a competent smith in your area who can measure the spring tension and travel of THAT spring (prefered, as this will be an independent opinion). Second choice, would be to send the spring back to baer (Id be inclined to ask for the guide rod to be replaced aswell) along with the buffer and ask them to bench test that spring. That is, Id ask for a new spring (tested), buffer and guide rod.

Im sorry, but I am just not satisfied with the dispensation that this is "normal wear/break-in". If it is, then why dont my buffs and guide rods look like this? Why have I never seen or heard of this from any of the dozen or so guns that friends of mine own and shoot A LOT?

You paid a lot for a D**N fine pistol. You deserve to have it meet your expections and your investment.

Good Luck! Stay safe.

[leade45]

I would change the spring out and not use the buff. Clean the gun and lube it up. I would shoot 50 rounds of regular factory hardball and strip the gun and monitor the wear. I would clean the gun up again and shoot another 100 rounds of factory hardball and then take a look at the wear patterns again.

If if worstens send the gun back to Baer. Good luck.

[ErnieStu]

Good on you, thanks.
I'm easy to train, mostly, so I use only decent factory 230gr fmj to break in the 1911s. In this case the only ammo through the P2st has been standard pressure RemUMC, not what you'd call hot loads by any stretch. Still less than 500 rounds through (a weak effort on my part I know, but I have a Nighthawk Predator3 to feed and some birddogs to train too, with my limited discretionary time each week).
The Baer has run fine since I tossed the shokbuff, but as you note the guide rod looks a bit rough for only a few hundred rounds. I should add that Baer (Brenda?) told me she thought the wear on the gr looked normal, and that the buffs are only good for 200-400 rounds. At 2000+ rounds are you sure the shokbuff fairy isn't sneaking you some freshies between range visits?
I'll swap out the gr spring with a new 18.5# Baer spring and see how it wears...Range report coming this summer. By the way, do most of you stick with the heavier springs recommended by Baer, or use the standard 16# springs?
I appreciate the feedback.

[Baz]

I wonder what John Browning would say about shock buffs? Plastic was not around when he developed the 1911 so maybe he would use it?

[dogdollar]

Yeah, let's not use those buffs. After all, they cost a dollar each, and what do Bill Wilson and Les Baer know, anyway ?

[Baz]

Les Baer and Bill Wilson certainly know they can not hurt and at .50 cents profit a piece why not use them?

[dogdollar]

I was being facetious, of course, Baz. Every gun I have that came with them still has them, and I don't wait to change them, I change them every time I clean the gun.
I have already listed, in another post, why I think they are useful......but it amuses me to no end to hear folks try and convince each other (and themselves) why they don't need them.
Will these guns work without them ? OF COURSE they will, and there may be something to be said about the "one more thing to go wrong" theory, so I might pause to consider if I want to use one on a carry gun on that purely hypothetical basis alone, but to say that these manufacturers only want to appear to be giving you "something extra" is a bit of a reach for me. If Wilson had wanted to do that for me, they could have put a steel guide rod in my CQB instead of that stumpy little plastic thing, and as for Les, I bought an Ultimate Master for 2800 bucks and that tightwad didn't even throw in a bushing wrench!!!!!!!!!!

[Baz]

You make some very good points. Maybe I have become jaded by so many retailers wanting to sell me the extra's. I can not speak from experiance so maybe I should continue to read the postings and learn.

[dogdollar]

Well, you've come to the right place. Everyone on this forum is very objective and open minded. Nope - no stubborn, opinionated people around here.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha :lh:

[ErnieStu]

I'm no gunsmith, but one of these things does not look like the others.
The recoil spring at left is the factory original that came with my new P2 supertac. The gun has 350 rounds through it, plus any factory test-firing. The two springs on the right are 18.5# Baer replacements which I just purchased...Anybody else have similar break-in issues?
She's probably not good for another 2000 rounds.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c254/erniestu/BaerSprings350rds.jpg

[dogdollar]

Why lose sleep anticipating a problem ? Stick them in there and see if they work.

[dogdollar]

Hell, throw in one of those new guys and see what difference it makes. It's definitely going to be either better, worse, or the same.......then let us all know. Better than anyone having to venture a guess !!!!

[Ping Ping]

I'm no gunsmith, but one of these things does not look like the others.
The recoil spring at left is the factory original that came with my new P2 supertac. The gun has 350 rounds through it, plus any factory test-firing. The two springs on the right are 18.5# Baer replacements which I just purchased...Anybody else have similar break-in issues?
She's probably not good for another 2000 rounds.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c254/erniestu/BaerSprings350rds.jpg

NO! Definitely NOT! That spring is B-U-N-K, BUNK! That pic, without saying another word, certainly answers the question as to why that shock buff went DOA!
As I look closely at the spring, the lower part looks fine until you get to about the middle of the wind, then it goes to crap. My best guess is impropper heat treating of that strand of wire. It easily happens, but Baer should be alerted and you SHOULD NOT have had to pay for a new spring and buff. Not a bad idea to keep a few of them around, but IMHO he owes you one of each, AND a new GR.
Assuming you DO successfully guilt them into coughing up a new GR, DO NOT install it until you have 350rds (like on the first spring) on one of the new springs. Use a sharpie to color over the scoring on the old rod and watch for more scoring. Throw the new buff in with the new spring and go nuts. Tear down and inspect for similar anomolies.
The only acceptable scratches/scores on my guns are caused by ME!... and I cherish every one of them ;)

[lustgarden]

Ernie Stu,
I just replaced the recoil spring in my p2 after 1600 rounds. The spring I took out was shorter (about the same amount as yours) than the new one I replaced it with.
I say this is normal for a spring that has been compressed through normal use.
I say there is nothing wrong with the spring that came with your gun and probably is good for another 2000 rounds.
My humble opinion

[ErnieStu]

Well, Les either agrees with me & Ping, or else it's not worth his time to fuss over it. He's sending me a new guide rod and spring, no big deal.
I think it's strange to see that amount of wear during break-in, and I'll hope it was just a bad spring. Y'all know I was joking when I asked about re-using that short spring...LustG no disrespect, but you're plum loco if you'd run that worn out $5 spring another 2000 rounds on a new $2000 gun.

[lustgarden]

Ernie Stu,
I am sure Les thinks it is not worth his time. Try looking at the spring you just installed
after 350 rounds and see if does not look the same as the one you just took out.
You asked for advice and if you do not agree with that advice you start calling people names. You would do well to remember that there are people here who monitor such behavior.

[ErnieStu]

LG, as I said no disrespect intended and you are correct that I'm the one asking for input. My apologies. But geez, lighten up a bit...a little levity doesn't hurt too bad. Frankly, I'm surprised how much attention this little post has gotten, so it seems like a healthy discussion. If anyone has a sense of humor, this would be a good time to use it.

[Ping Ping]

ErnieStu,

Im glad to hear that Les has once again stepped up and shown his panchant for customer service and satisfaction. I will say, in my experience, if he thinks youre making much ado of nothing, he doesnt mind telling you so. +1 to Les.

I find I run around 2k rds between springs and buffers. Im not dedicated to the buffer, but its such a no-hassle install, why not? Besides, like I said earlier, its a good indicator as to the health of the spring. Neither of my Baers showed anything near that sort of spring compression at 500rds and I stand by my previous post. They do tend to compress a bit at the business end after 2k though. As I recall, yours showed 3-4 loops of compression at 350rds. Not normal. Not right.
You were right to pursue this to fruition and again, Im happy it all turned out for the best.
Take my advice and run the new spring with the old rod, using the black sharpie trick with a new buff. If youre really anal, check the old vs. new rod for true and caliper them both. This is what LBC does to virtually all parts at the factory, which is why his pistols are so tight.

Most of all.... love your new baby and shoot the hell out of her!