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3ACR_Scout
30th April 2006, 03:43
Hi guys,

I'm brand new to this forum, and also brand new to collecting 1911s. I've been interested in World War II history since high school, and I hope to collect examples of the various historic US weapons from that conflict. I started with a CMP Garand and have been wanted to buy a 1911A1 for a while. I hadn't really thought about an earlier 1911, but I came across a Colt at a show today that was, according to the guy that the dealer acquired it from, refurbished / rebuilt for service in World War II. The pistol appears to be in good condition, and looks like it may have an interesting history. My knowledge of the production and variations in Model 1911 pistols is limited to what I've read in Clawson's collector's guide, so please be patient if I screw up some information or terminology...

The pistol is obviously a bit mismatched as one would expect of a weapon that went through a military refurb. Most significantly, the pistol has been parkerized (I can hear the collectors cringing!), with the exception of the slide stope (probably a replacement part) and I think the barrel, although maybe the barrels weren't parkerized?. While the frame appears to be of 1918 manufacture (serial no. 4746XX), the slide looks like it was swapped from an earlier gun. The slide has Roman style lettering, while the frame is printed in the later block style. I think the hammer may also be an earlier style than the frame should have. The finish (or refinish) is in pretty good shape, with some visible scratches in the finish itself but no major damage to any of the metal components that I can see, except for wear on the tops of the sights and where the frame rails rub against the sides of the slide at the front. There's a bit of wear on the finish at the front of the slide, but not what I would normally consider to be holster wear.

Here's a rough photo - I'll take some more in better light during the day tomorrow:

http://www.mindspring.com/~drolsen/M1911a.jpg

A couple questions for you experts:

- Are these types of refurbished 1911s pretty common, and where they normally parkerized like this? This is the first time I've seen one, so I just wanted to make sure that the parkerizing isn't something a previous owner did. The dealer said the guy he got it from wasn't really a collector, but said that this pistol was rebuilt for World War II. Can anyone tell me where I could find out some info about this process? The dealer suggested I could contact Colt's historian but that I'd have to pay a fee for the research.

- Should I bother trying to match up the parts on this pistol a little better? Is it possible to find parkerized 1911 (as opposed to 1911A1) parts anywhere? I'd like to replace the slide catch so that its finish matches the rest of the pistol, but I'd like to use a 1911 part. Would it be possible to find a parkerized 1911 slide somewhere that would more closely match the production features of the frame? I'm guessing I'd have to look for another parkerized 1911 and hope that the slides could be swapped. As is, I think the pistol is an interesting old warrior and in good shape, so I'm not sure I want to put a lot of money into trying to make it "perfect," since it would never be an "as-issued" 1911. I have a feeling there are probably some 1911A1 parts mixed into this pistol from the rebuild anyway, plus the new finish, of course.

- I know this pistol can't really be considered a collector's firearm because of the finish and modifications, but I was curious what a 1911 like this is worth. I have a feeling it's kind of a "beater" as far as 1911s go, but I paid $650 for this pistol, which to me was well worth it for an example of a World War II pistol, and if nothing else, for a piece of history that's almost 90 years old. I'm not prepared to drop $1500 or more on a 1911 before I learn more about their production and features, so I thought this would be a good starting point for collecting some interesting historical pieces. I plan to fire this pistol occasionally, by the way - I wanted a 1911 to fire along side my Garand, not a shelf piece.

Thanks in advance for your comments and feedback.

Dave

Doran
30th April 2006, 07:25
It is a refinish but hard to tell when. I would say recently done from the picture. Sometimes small extra stamps on the frame will indicate an arsenal refurbish, if there are any of those.

A previous owner may have replaced a later style slide stop with the early one to make it more "correct". I think a parkerized slide stop would look better. I would try to color match and not worry too much about the style since there are some other later parts on it also. I've seen parkerized 1911 stops at gunshows however if you want one of that style. Your blue slide stop is probably worth two or three times a parked one if it has original finish. The pistol looks matching for color now and a different slide will probably not match as well.

Beyond chgng the slide stop I don't think you can improve the looks or value so if it were mine I would enjoy it as is.

exitwounds
30th April 2006, 10:30
The refinish appears to be one of more modern times, more like an aftermarket black matte type finish. I would enjoy it for what it is, to find a parkerized slide stop of the correct vintage that will match the finish on the pistol will be difficult, and most likely stand out as much as the one that is on it. I would agree with Doran, in that changing the part will not improve it's looks or value.

Ken Hill
30th April 2006, 19:09
The slide stop, with the undercut beneath the checkering is correct for the production period of that pistol and should stay with it.

191145
1st May 2006, 08:23
I'm not an expert, but it looks like a typical WWII rebuild to me, and I would change nothing, based on the info at hand. The finish could be the original rebuild finish. Be sure to follow up with more pics/info so it can be nailed down.

3ACR_Scout
2nd May 2006, 00:43
I'm not an expert, but it looks like a typical WWII rebuild to me, and I would change nothing, based on the info at hand. The finish could be the original rebuild finish. Be sure to follow up with more pics/info so it can be nailed down.

Thanks for all the replies - I guess I was trying to find out if the Army / government actually did parkerize 1911s during the rebuild process, as this dealer told me. If not, I was going to consider having it re-blued (if you can do that with a parkerized finish - this is new territory for me). I figured if the parkerizing isn't correct, at least I could put the correct finish on it...

But if the military did parkerize some 1911s during the WWII rebuild process, I'll definitely keep it as-is. The slide catch appears to be the original finish, but again, I'm a novice at this, so I probably don't know the difference. The catch looks almost like a new part.

Here's a photo of the other side that I took - the exposure was pretty bad, so the colors look different in this one (I was trying to take it with the pistol under a desk lamp on white paper - didn't work well...):

http://www.mindspring.com/~drolsen/M1911b.jpg

I'll try to take some better photos this weekend - it's been a couple long weeks at work, so I don't think I'll get to it during the week. I thought you weren't supposed to still be working til 7 or 8 at night after you leave Iraq!

Thanks again, guys,

Dave

3ACR_Scout
2nd May 2006, 12:58
Sometimes small extra stamps on the frame will indicate an arsenal refurbish, if there are any of those.

I haven't been able to find any stamps other than the original eagle's head with "S12" on the left side next to the trigger, beside the plastic grip. According to the book I have, this is an inspection stamp from 1918.

There is also a small "26" stamped on the flat spot where the trigger guard meets the grip on the left side. I haven't been able to find any references to that.

The slide doesn't have any of the stampings on it, either at the back where the hammer strikes (I don't know what that face is called) or on the underside. Most references I've found show stampings in those locations, so I'm not sure what that means. Otherwise, the slide has all the features of an early production 1911 (serial numbers before about 200000).

Dave

exitwounds
2nd May 2006, 18:47
The arsenals and depots did parkerize pistols in the rebuild/refurbishment process. The pistol could possibly be a gov't rebuild/refinish, not all arsenals and/or depots stamped their rebuilds. Personally I would leave the pistol as it is, and enjoy it for what it is. Restoring it to a blued configuration will only cost you money and not increase it's value since it has already been refinished at some point in it's life. It is what it is, and enjoy it the way it is. It is a great looking pistol as is, IMO.

191145
2nd May 2006, 23:15
Well put, exitwounds.

3ACR_Scout
3rd May 2006, 10:25
Thanks for all the responses, guys. I'm very happy with this pistol, but since it's my first GI 1911, I just wanted to try to learn as much as possible about its background and history. I appreciate all your insight. I'm going to take it to a gunsmith and have it examined before I put any rounds through it, but I definitely plan to shoot it, at least occasionally. It will be a good companion for my Garand. Take it easy!

Dave

Gladius
16th May 2006, 11:55
Hi 3ACR SCOUT!
Would you be stationed at Fort Carson CO. by any chance? If so, there is a great collectors show in Denver the weekend of May 19 - 21 at I 25 and 58th at the Denver merchandise mart. It is one of the best collectors shows in the country. PM me and I will give you more details. Maybe you could come by our table and visit. Back on topic, There is a guy who is looking for and selling early Colt, Springfield and Remington 45 auto parts. And to a lesser degree WW 2 parts. He is always looking for loose parts people have for sale from grips to slides. I know there is a lot of interest out there in putting these old war horses back in the configuration that they left the factory in. There just seems to be much more interest than there are parts. I know it may be ssacrilegeto alter an old military pistol but I for one like certain guns to be the way they left the factory. Like that old U.S. Navy 45 I used to have but traded it off for....