Need Opinions on Semi-customs

[novak1911freak]

I'm trying to decide between a few semi-custom 1911s. The front runners are Nighthawk, Les Baer, and a Rock River Arms. I like Nighthawk because you can fully customize a 1911. From what I know of Les Baer, they make really solid pistols, and RRA will make a 1911 pretty much any way you want, and they are the cheapest of the three. But I'm curious what people think about these guns compared to something from Ted Yost, I really like the 1* Enhanced package and even if i had one built from a Springfield GI I would be paying much less than even the RRA. Does anyone own more than just one of the above guns and if so what are your impression?

P.S. Pics wold be nice....thanks everyone!

[John]

Well, I've never owned any of these pistols, but I have a Talon waiting to be exported to Greece for me.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/Talon/Greek3_800.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/sv1cec/Talon/Greek1_800.jpg

I am sure Ted Yost's work should be fantastic, but I do not know what the cost is, so I can't compare. In general, and from what I hear, my order of preference from the semi-custom makers would be:

Nighthawk, Ed Brown, Rock River in that order.

Les Baer, I hear too many things which I do not like about his guns, while there are some features I hate on Wilson's guns.

Not much help I know, but no one else has answered your post, so I thought I would jump in.

[novak1911freak]

Thanks John, I've heard read through your story several times, I would hate to go through what you have but I have to say that your Talon is one of the best examples that I have ever seen. Ted Yost basic 1* package is around $1200-1300, whereas the Nighthawk starts at $2300 so I'm just curious if the extra $1000 is worth it on something like a Nighthawk Talon. I've also read alot of things bad about Les Baer, at the same time I've also read alot of good things. I've asked a few people what they think about the RRA and the Les Baer and a few have said that they would rather have the RRA anytime. Also, I know that out of Nighthawk, RRA, Les Baer, and Ed Brown, only Nighthawk and RRA will install an arched mainspring housing when they build your gun. Several people have said that if I want an arched mainspring housing that I should buy the gun, like a Les Baer, or Ed Brown and take it to another gunsmith and install one. But I think that if I'm going to spend that kind of money for a semi custom 1911 I had better get what I want rather than what is dictated to me by the manufacturer, the same is the case of Les Baer 1911s and their sights. The more I think about it I like both Nighthawk and RRA better and better....I would still like more opinions if anyone has them....

[John]

Well, if Mr. Yost's package is about 1300$ on a Springfield pistol (I assume a GI). From reading the specs, I do not see anywhere if the slide to frame fit is altered, so I have to assume it is not. In other words, even with the exceptional work that Mr Yost will perform on the pistol, you still have a GI frame and slide and the fit is what it was on the basic pistol.

If you go to a Nighthawk, (and I am refering to NHC because that's all I have experience with), the slide is fit to the frame, by hand, as every other part of the pistol too. What this means is that you get more accuracy out of the pistol, as well as (again, I stress I am assuming, I haven't fired my Talon yet) better reliability, since every part is matted correctly to every other part.

So, there is a lot more work in producing the Talon, for example, than meets the eye. If the 1300$ more are worth it? Only you can answer that question.

[Frank]

I have Nighthawks, Les Baers and an Ed Brown, and have been very pleased with them. I don't have any experience with RRA.

I do have a series 80 Colt 1991a1 that was tuned modestly at Gunsite back when I believe that Yost was doing the work, but I can't be sure. It's also a very nice gun, but it doesn’t have all the bells and whistles that the others do.

IMHO all these semi-custom makers seem to mostly turn out very good guns. You'll always find someone who has had a bad experience with one of them, and you'll find folks with strong preferences.

I'd be inclined to choose based on which one had the particular features I was looking for. At these prices, I'd want to get it just the way I'd like it, and not mess around with having a local gunsmith retro-fit something.

So if you prefer the arched mainspring housing, you'd probably want to go with either NHC or RRA. If you like the finishes that NHC uses, they would be a good choice. If you prefer a blued gun, you may lean toward RRA, although I understand that NHC will produce a blued gun on request. I think that both could supply a gun in hard chrome, but as far as I know, only NHC offers the Black Diamond finish.

I also notice that the Yost 1* package at $1300 doesn’t include a match barrel, checkering the frontstrap or night sights. If these features are important to you, they could add another $500 to $600, or more, to the cost. I’ve heard good things about Yost, and the 1* package is probably an excellent gun. It doesn’t seem however to be comparable to the semi-custom guns you’ve mentioned as far as features go. Adding some of those features seems to bring you up over $2000 (e. g., the 1* Elite).

DVC

[Gunslingers]

The only high end semi-customs that I personally own are Wilsons, Nighthawks, and an STI GrandMaster. The Wilson CQB's thumb safety was very difficult to flip on and off when I got the gun. I called them and they told me to 'send it in' and they would take care of it. Of course I would have to pay the shipping to them and they would pay return shipping. So I found a local gunsmith that fixed it for less than the shipping would have cost me.

My STI would not reliably feed more than one round at a time. So I had a $3000 single shot semi-auto. I did ship that one back at a cost of $60. I still have problems with it occasionally.

My Talon has not had any problems and so far I have shot an IDPA and PPC match with it. I take that back, I had one FTF on one of my reloads. I ejected that round and continued the course of fire. But, if I ever do have a problem, it is a great comfort knowing that NHC will pay shipping both ways. Don't discount that benefit of owning a Nighthawk. If you properly ship and fully insure your gun that shipping cost could top $50 or more depending on where you live and how much higher the cost of fuel is going to go.
Bottom line, think of the 'after sale' service of the gun manufacturer you choose in addition to the build quality of the gun and if they will build one the way YOU want it!

[novak1911freak]

I appreciate everything everybody has said and it is all very true. I especially like the fact that if any work has to be done Nighthawk will pay for shipping both ways and more than likely will do the work for free. PermaKote does seem to be a pretty good finish and Gunslinger was great to quote me a very good price on a Talon so I think may go with Nighthawk. Now I just have to have the funds, thanks everyone for your help.

[MLee]

Les Baer, I hear too many things which I do not like about his guns, while there are some features I hate on Wilson's guns.

John, I have heard some things that I do not like about Ed Brown and Wilson, but have yet to hear anything substantial about Les Baer's weapons or service. I am considering a semi-custom 1911 from the aforementioned and would like to know what you have heard that you do not like about his product. Thanks for any input.

Mike

[John]

Check the Les Baer forum. Too tight guns, egoistic behaviour etc.

[MLee]

John,

If you don't mind me asking, what made you select the Nighthawk Talon over all the rest; Les Baer, Ed Brown, Wilson, etc. Considering the restrictions on the number of pistols you can own, you must have completed considerable research and deliberated over the possible selections before choosing the Talon.

Thanks, Mike

[John]

Well, for me there were some guns I had in my list. The Talon, the Brown Kobra Carry, Baer SRP. I do not like Wilson guns, so I didn't have one in my list, even though they are fine pistols. From then on, the selection was not done based on the pistol and its features, (these guns had the same features more or less) as much as on which company was willing to agree with the deal I proposed and the small special things, I wanted on my gun.

Mind you, I forgot to ask one of those special things, when the final specs for the Talon were given to Nighthawk, so it will not be on the gun. I wanted the slide stop to be flush with the frame and its hole being countersunk, but I didn't ask for it, so it's not going to be there.

[MLee]

Your list is almost identical to mine. Years ago, I had wanted a Wilson, but I think that over the years Wilson has gone away from quality to production and hype. Les Baer's advertising has always put me off a little, but remained on the list due to Clint Smith's endorsement. Ed Brown's Kobra Carry was high on my list due to a friends endorsement, but recent stories by members of the forum on Ed Brown's customer service left me a little concerned about support. I had always wondered about Nighthawk Custom, i.e., were they refugees from Wilson or Wilson wannabees, but after more scrutiny their product seems to have as much merit as the others on my list. RRA has also caught my attention. The journey is almost as much pleasure as reaching the destination. Thanks for your thoughts and opinions.

Mike

[Frank]

John,

It's a little tough to tell from the picture, and I don't want to get your hopes up; but it looks like you just might have gotten your flush slide stop. I think that someone mentioned that NHC was just routinely doing them that way now.

Any way, I hope that's right. You've been waiting a long time for this and you deserve a break.

DVC

[John]

Frank, I am sure it is not flush and countersunk. I didn't ask for it, so there is no one to blame but me, so I'll live with this. And the worst thing is that this Black Diamond finish is very wear resistant, so it will be years before the pistol will need reblueing, at which time I'll have that last small detail performed.

BUT, for the time being, let's just hope that the bureaucratic procedures of getting the import license from the Greek Government and the export license from the US State Dept. will go smoothly, and the pistol will eventually come to me.

MLee, I can assure you that the guys at NHC used to be the top smiths in Wilson. Actually, I've heard some stories about some gun which were supposedly build by Bill Wilson himself, which wasn't. But this is things I've heard, and I can't repeat them here. If I do, I may loose my ... discount at Wilson Combat, LoRL.

[Ping Ping]

Check the Les Baer forum. Too tight guns, egoistic behaviour etc.

What El Commandante says is true. Baers come out of the box very tight. So do all other high-end, "tuned for accuracy" guns Ive seen. When John finally DOES get his Talon, it will be tight too. These are the creme de la creme of high-end pistols. In order to achieve what they do, you have to spec them to unbelievably close tolerances. ALL will losen up. The MAJOR difference is HOW MUCH? The semi-customs Ive had prior to my Baers just kept getting looser and looser... til I sold them. The guys at my club with Talon's dont report this, but will tell you they too came tight.

As our fearless leader also points out, A PRODUCTION GUN, REGARDLESS OF HOTRODDING, will still have PRODUCTION durability and reliability. Trust me, Ive HOTRODDED a LOT of $800 1911s. As also stated, by the time you pay a (hard-to-find) competent smith to do the hotrodding, you will have paid for a NH Talon and have half the gun.

Les has an Ego: Well DUH! Has anyone here ever met a perfectionist who knows his craft inside'n out and could spot a neophite a mile away, who DIDNT??? He is not rude or condescending about it. He just knows his pistols. He will tell you what he will and WONT do, based on what he KNOWS is best. EX: He will not install an aftermarket part on one of his pistols because he knows it wont meet his exacting tolerances and will likely rattle or compromise performance in some way. His entire business and livelyhood is based on his reputation for ultimate performance, durability and customer satisfaction. Why would he compromise that? Guys like Les Baer dont live in 50 room mansions and drive Mercedes S-class cars. They WORK for a living at what they LOVE doing.
Ex: Someone at my regular range (a neophite, with more money than ability) purchased one of his pistols. Upon "measuring" everything and test shooting it, he called Les and reported that the trigger pull was not at his specified tension and that the pistol did not shoot 3" groups at 50yrds. Les said, "Yes it is and yes it does. Send it back to me." A few weeks later, he got a registered letter back. It showed the trigger pull poundage (which was correct) with a certificate of calibration of the scale from the same week. The envelope also included a certification of accuracy and a test target.
If being shown to be wrong when you are, offends some people, sobeit. Get over it. That seems to be a function of the users ego and not that of the maker.
If there are any verifiable posts, or documentation out there establishing that Baer pistols do or have performed below stated measures, PLEASE post them. If anyone out there has not been treated FAIRLY by LBC, please post it. Ive yet to see anything of the sort.
What makes a Baer a Baer is that they shoot as smoothly, as reliably and as accurately at round 20,000 as they do at round 2,000.
When comparing high-end, "semi-customs", make sure you get FORGED slides and frames. Make sure they are fitted to EACH OTHER. Make sure you get a NM grade barrel. Make sure you get a performance guarantee and MAKE SURE you get what YOU really want.
The choices are not as many as you think, but making the right one is ultimately satisfying.

Cant wait to hear your WOOTS and YIPEES when you get your new baby, John!

[Ping Ping]

ooo that sexy talon... its flush