Jamming-Help!

[Rocket 6R]

I went to the range today with my Colt pre-70 pistol. I fired about 35 rounds of my reloads through it. My reloads consist of a 230gr. LRN, 4.8gr of Bullseye, and OAL of 1.30". I received one jam with my reloads. I have never experienced a jam like this before with this load in any of my 1911's including this pistol. I have fired about 350 rounds of these reloads in this pistol for the last month with no problems. I have also fired Win. "white box" and Fed. American Eagle through this pistol with no problems. Oh, the jam occurred on the last round in the magazine.

The pistol:
1. Wolff 16# spring (about 400 rounds fired using this spring).
2. New MetalForm 7rd magazine (45-793W)
3. A tuned Wilson Bullet Proof extractor
4. Chamber throated by a well known 1911 gunsmith. The gunsmith also checked the dimensions of the barrel to frame fit and they are within spec. (the chamber to frame ramp area).

Attached are pictures of the jam. http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f382/prsalazar/Picture389.jpg
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f382/prsalazar/Picture390.jpg
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f382/prsalazar/Picture391.jpg

DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT MIGHT BE GOING ON HERE?

Thanks, Rocket 6R

[Hunter]

My first guess would be magazine related (weak magazine spring) but you said the magazines were new. Are you using a shock buffer? Did you run the reloads through a go no go gauge? I would keep an eye on that magazine to see if it occures again with factory loads. I just bought a brand new 20 round magazine for my Colt AR 15 and got a similar jam three times yesterday with my reloads but my other 2 30 round magazine worked flawlessly.

[Rocket 6R]

My first guess would be magazine related (weak magazine spring) but you said the magazines were new. Are you using a shock buffer? Did you run the reloads through a go no go gauge? I would keep an eye on that magazine to see if it occures again with factory loads. I just bought a brand new 20 round magazine for my Colt AR 15 and got a similar jam three times yesterday with my reloads but my other 2 30 round magazine worked flawlessly.


Hunter,

1. no shock buffer used.
2. I bought seven MetalForm mags with the 11# Wolff springs and all are very stout.
3. I don't have a go no-go gauge, but I re-chambered the round and it was fine.


By the way, I was resting the pistol on a block to fire groups and I'm wondering if a limp-wrist could cause this effect. I was really concentrating on my sights and don't know if I had a firm grip.

Thanks, Rocket 6R

[Hunter]

Yes I believe limp wristing can cause that type of failure to feed. I have mentioned limp wristing to a few of my shooting buddies and they think I am crazy. From what I understand about limp wristing is much of the recoil force was expended in lifting the whole pistol so that force lost reduces the amount of energy imparted on the slide in ejection and feeding. I have seen it happen before especially if light target loads are used with a 16 pound recoil spring. 4.8 grains of bullseye in 230 lead ball is about middle of the road so I would expect that load to have sufficient energy to cycle the slide with a 16 pound recoil spring but like you said limp wristing can cause weird types of FTF. I would not worry too much about it unless it happens again when you know your grip on the Colt was right. Nice Colt by the way.

[Rocket 6R]

Hunter, thanks for your response.

As a side note, I made an error on this post. The OAL of my reloads is 1.23".

Thanks, Paul

[Hersh]

Man that looks like a bolt over base FTF to me. It does seem odd that it would happen with brand new MF mags with Wolff 11# springs, but I suppose Wolff could let a bad one get out the door once in awhile.

Yes I believe limp wristing can cause that type of failure to feed.

Hunter,

On limp wristing, let me ask you guys about an experiment I did once. I fired my Commander several times gripping it with only my middle (bird ;) ) finger and thumb of my right hand and couldn't induce a FTF. Based on what I've always heard about limp wristing, wouldn't you expect that kind of grip to cause all kinds of strange feed problems?

'Not pot stirrin' here, just in my usual state of semi-confusion :D

Hersh

[Hunter]

I myself have never had it happen but I have let a few folks shoot my Springfield high cap and have seen it have the same jam when they shot it. Last time I was out with my Springfield I had ran about 150 rounds through her with no trouble and I let a friend of mine shoot it and he had two bolt over base jams in the first magazine. He asked my if I was having trouble with my Springfield jamming and I told him the FTF were because he was limp wristing. Well he was sure I was making that up but when I ran another 100 rounds through it without a hitch he did mention to me he was having trouble holding the Springfield because the grip was so large. I do believe if your technique is off or you have excessive limp wristing FTF can happen.

[Hersh]

I do believe if your technique is off or you have excessive limp wristing FTF can happen.

Yeah you're probably right I've just never seen it happen. One guy at the range told me he saw someone shoot a 1911 who was obviously afraid of it - grip all wrong - limp arms, you name it. He said the gun locked up like 5:00 traffic!

Hersh

[Blasterboy]

Rocket,
Compliments on the word descriptions and the photgraphy here...great post. My take is that you simply experienced an inadvertent malfunction not attributable to the weapon or operator per se. The tendency is to start looking at the firearm for something amiss or finding fault in something you as the shooter did wrong. In an imperfect world, things of this nature happen with us that are purely random and pretty much open to chance.

[1911Tuner]

That's not a bolt-over base. Looks like frame ramp/throat geometry are either all wrong, or the gun is OAL critical...which can be due to the ramp/throat geometry.
OAL with 230 RN should be 1.250-1.260 inch. Shorter can cause
your problem.

Too much extractor tension or breechface guide rails being too narrow can also do that. .484-.488 inch, measured without the extractor.

[Hunter]

Would you say a bolt over base is similar to a live stove pipe jam or are they two different types of malfunctions?

[1911Tuner]

Would you say a bolt over base is similar to a live stove pipe jam or are they two different types of malfunctions?

Live Stovepipe and BOB are pretty much the same...and the BOB can turn into a complete rideover FTF. The one in the picture isn't a BOB. The case rim in ahead of the slide. With a BOB, the breechface rides over the rim and either catches the case in the extractor groove...resulting in a nose-up live round stovepipe...or a full rideover, depending on how fast the slide is and how weak the mag spring is.

One other thing...The mag lips can also cause his stoppage if they're too far apart. Measurement actoss the top/flat area should be .535-.540 inch.

[Hersh]

Live Stovepipe and BOB are pretty much the same...and the BOB can turn into a complete rideover FTF.

'Trying to understand the difference ... so in a BOB the round is more vertical than the example here ... is that correct?

[John]

No, in the example shown in the pictures, the cartridge is in front of the slide's lower edge (the point which pushes the cartridge from the magazine). In a BOB, that point of the slide, has gone over the rim and catches the round from the extractor groove.

[1911Tuner]

'Trying to understand the difference ... so in a BOB the round is more vertical than the example here ... is that correct?

Bolt Over Base usually results in a vertical cartridge attitude...or nearly so.
The breechface catches the case in the extractor groove. A full rideover
gets past the extractor groove, and the round remains horizontal because it moves forward only enough to strike the feed ramp with the slide on top of it.
Bolt-Overs are as quick and easy to clear as a stovepipe FTE, while full rideovers can lock the gun up solidly.

Bolt-Overs are potentially dangerous. If the case head is caught between the breechface and hood at the right place, the primer can be detonated
from the side impact under the right circumstances. I've seen it happen...
actually been on scene...about 5 minutes after I warned the guy that it could happen. Shooting glasses saved his eyes.

You can produce either in most guns, though in the occasional gun, sometimes the vertical dimensions and tolerance stacks won't allow the gun to do a live-round stovepipe...but most will do it. Magazine in place with one round loaded...draw the slide back until the breechface is centered in the extractor groove...and release. For the rideover, pull the slide back and release ahead of the extractor groove.

[Dr. Dickie]

Yes I believe limp wristing can cause that type of failure to feed. I have mentioned limp wristing to a few of my shooting buddies and they think I am crazy. From what I understand about limp wristing is much of the recoil force was expended in lifting the whole pistol so that force lost reduces the amount of energy imparted on the slide in ejection and feeding. I have seen it happen before especially if light target loads are used with a 16 pound recoil spring. 4.8 grains of bullseye in 230 lead ball is about middle of the road so I would expect that load to have sufficient energy to cycle the slide with a 16 pound recoil spring but like you said limp wristing can cause weird types of FTF. I would not worry too much about it unless it happens again when you know your grip on the Colt was right. Nice Colt by the way.

Yep, when I was at the range just this last Friday, I had a two FTF. It happend as soon as I when to practicing strong hand only shots. I quickly figured out I was limp wristing it. I firmed my grip up to what it should have been and that solved the problem. It also pointed out to me that I was slightly limp wristing my two hand shots, so I am glad I did it. It solved a big problem I was having with accuracy as well. ;)

[1911Tuner]

Hunter and Doc...Ya'll come see me and I'll dispel with that "Limp Grip" thing for ya. If you've got a pistol that requires just the right grip for reliable function...how ya gonna trust a snake like that if ya hafta hoist Baker?

A pistol carried for serious intent should function...no matter if your grip wouldn't hurt a butterfly or if it would crush a tin can...upside down, sideways, or whatever...Period. If it won't do it...get if fixed. ;)

[John]

I agree with Johnny, I have fired my pistols with very light gripping, sideways, straight up (I haven't tried upside down so far, but someday, I'll remember to do it) etc. Never failed to function properly.

[Dr. Dickie]

Hunter and Doc...Ya'll come see me and I'll dispel with that "Limp Grip" thing for ya. If you've got a pistol that requires just the right grip for reliable function...how ya gonna trust a snake like that if ya hafta hoist Baker?

A pistol carried for serious intent should function...no matter if your grip wouldn't hurt a butterfly or if it would crush a tin can...upside down, sideways, or whatever...Period. If it won't do it...get if fixed. ;)

Okay, thanks for the info. When you're right, you're right.
I am going to keep my eye on this.
I did just put a new recoil spring in this pistol (as per your instructions--24 coils of a government model spring--this is about 3 or 4 coils more than the spring which was in it). I am also running with the non-radiused stop (just a bevel); however, that did not cause any problems before.
It did it but that one time when I went to strong hand only, when I stiffened my grip, it did not do it anymore.
I have ordered some metalform mags, and plan on dumping some iffy ones.
I'll see it I have any problems again this Friday.