EGW FP Stop

[1911Tuner]

Now that I've got everybody all in a tizzy over the small radiused firing pin stop...would anybody like to offer a theory as to exactly what it does to reduce muzzle flip? (And it does.)

Clew:

It doesn't reduce recoil..or "kick." The recoil generated by a 40-ounce pistol firing a 230-grain bullet at 850 fps is what it is. Perceived recoil can be reduced or increased by a change in grip angle or bore axis...but the recoil energy will be the same.

So...How does this simple little change create such a difference in the way the gun handles?

Clew 2:

Although it's been theorized that the change is in perception...or all in the shooter's mind...because he believes that the smaller radius reduces felt recoil...it does alter the recoil charactistics of the gun.

Clew 3:

It accomplishes this in two ways.

Ready...Set...GO!

[Hawkmoon]

My guess is that at least one of the mechanisms at work is that the square corner means more of the early recoil energy is transferred into pushing back the hammer, and thus dissipated as the slide moves back rather than being stored in the slide and transferred to the frame all at once when the slide hits the bitter end of its travel.

In other words, because of the small radius the slide has less mechanical advantage relative to the hammer, thus more energy must be expended in pushing the hammer back and down.

[jaybo292]

I Second That!!

[1911Tuner]

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaang...Ya'll are good!

In quick-time:

There are three separate impulses. Nay...Four! They occur so close together and so fast, that they seem to be one.

The actual "kick" when the round fires.

The second one happens as the slide starts to move and cock the hammer.
These two impusles are so close together, that...for all practical purposes...they act as one impulse.

The third as the slide travels, and your hand is fighting the recoil spring's increasing resistance. Here, the slide is causing the spring to push the frame.
(Which is why a heavier recoil spring tires your hand faster.)

The fourth occurs as the slide slaps the impact surface of the guide rod flange and frame abutment.

The fourth one is what creates most of the muzzle flip because it's hard, sudden impact...steel to steel...and because part of the slide's mass has overcentered in relation to your hand. This is the one that the small radius
works hardest to negate, though the lower slide velocity also cancels out some of the recoil spring's effect in pushing the frame rearward.

By slowing the slide during its initial movement and transferring energy and momentum into the mainspring, less is available at the end of its travel. Slide to frame impact is reduced as less momentum slams into the frame so the gun jerks upward less violently...and recovery time is shorter. The difference
can be dramatic, depending on your grip and level of skill in controlling recoil.
The more experienced shooters usually report the greatest difference in feel,
and often say that...when they first start to use the modified stop...that their
pistols actually dip too low on the recovery until they get accustomed to the reduced flip and stop fighting it so much.

And, now ya know... ;)

[scooter]

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaang...Ya'll are good!

;)
But a padawan is only as good as his lessons Master Jedi Tunerhttp://forum.m1911.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

[John]

I won't classify myself as an "Experienced Shooter" although I've been playing with the 1911s for about 12 years now, due to the few rounds I fire per year (at 38$ per box of 50 rounds, what you expect?).

With that cleared, I have tried several of those devices that say that reduce recoil, most of the times the test was done with two similar guns, fired in quick succession. I had a hard time seeing any difference in recoil with any of them. Very slight difference with some, almost none with others.

With this little piece, I immediatelly noticed how much less the muzzle flip was, and how sweeter the gun was to shoot, the difference was so noteworthy that I could believe it.

Now, if only I was capable enough with the files, I would have it perfect, instead I have to wait for EGW to send me some pre-cut ones to fit in my pistols again, so that I do not kill the hammer pin holes of my guns. Oh yes, they are installed on each and every one of them (not that they are too many).

[1911Pilot]

:scared: 38$ per box of 50 rounds, :scared: :scared:

Yikes! Can you reload or is that just as expensive? I was just beginning to think that I need a good .22 conversion since WWB is so expensive!

[runt]

:scared: :scared: :scared:

Yikes! Can you reload or is that just as expensive? I was just beginning to think that I need a good .22 conversion since WWB is so expensive!

at least you can get wwb in .45acp, i can't. i am thinking of an advantage arms .22lr kit due to that fact (well, once my amt comes back from the gunsmith).

[John]

Reload? No way, primers are considered to be detonators here, if you are caught with them, you are going to jail with terrorist charges. :(

[1911Tuner]

Reload? No way, primers are considered to be detonators here, if you are caught with them, you are going to jail with terrorist charges. :(

Cryin' shame, John.

I just used up the last of my lead ingots yesterday in a spur of the moment decision to fire up the moulds. Yield was 2600+ 225-grain round nose bullets that...once assembled into ammo...will cost me about 35 dollars for a thousand rounds.

If ya ever come to Lexington, NC USA for a visit, ammo's on me. You can shoot more in a couple range trips than you likely shoot all year at home.
:cool:

Bring some of that wimpy Greek coffee with ya... :D

[Dr. Dickie]

My guess is that at least one of the mechanisms at work is that the square corner means more of the early recoil energy is transferred into pushing back the hammer, and thus dissipated as the slide moves back rather than being stored in the slide and transferred to the frame all at once when the slide hits the bitter end of its travel.

In other words, because of the small radius the slide has less mechanical advantage relative to the hammer, thus more energy must be expended in pushing the hammer back and down.

Which begs the question, what mainspring to you all recommend for your pistols?
I just changed out the mainspring on my 1991A1 Commander (as I bought it used--born in 2001)--I had no idea how many rounds through it.
I put the standard 23# in it. Is that recommended? I also have a light mainspring (I think 19#); however, I though that might be counterproductive with the light radius FP stop.
I am not going through my 1978 SN Commander (waiting on 5" Recoil springs to come in so I can cut some down), going to replace the FP stop, FP spring, mainspring, recoil spring. Should I put the stanard 23# in?
I will shoot the 1991A1 with both new spring and new stop Friday.

[Dr. Dickie]

Reload? No way, primers are considered to be detonators here, if you are caught with them, you are going to jail with terrorist charges. :(

If it would not land us both in jail, I would send ya a care package ;)
As is, I am afraid all I can do it sympathize :(
It does both make me appreciate the freedom we have here, and realize what could be if we are not ever vigilant in protecting what the politicans want to take away.

[John]

If ya ever come to Lexington, NC USA for a visit, ammo's on me.

What do you mean partner? The ammo is on you but the guns on me? I don't think we'll have much luck with this scenario, LoRL.

[1911Tuner]

What do you mean partner? The ammo is on you but the guns on me? I don't think we'll have much luck with this scenario, LoRL.

Oh Well...I guess I'll just hafta put a few of my old beat-up pistols on the table for ya to try out. Lemme see...Wanna shoot a Rand? How 'bout a
couple of WW2-era USGI Colts? Couple WW1s?

(Ya'll stand by for in-depth coverage of the Commandante's summer vacation
to Lexington, NC.) :D

[1911Tuner]

If it would not land us both in jail, I would send ya a care package ;)
As is, I am afraid all I can do it sympathize :(
It does both make me appreciate the freedom we have here, and realize what could be if we are not ever vigilant in protecting what the politicans want to take away.

Howdy Doc.

I never use lighter than standard (23#) mainsprings. Although the small-radius stop will affect the gun with any mainspring, you'll get the full benefit with the 23 pounder...and for those brave souls who go for the hot-rod
Super and Rowland cartridges, I suggest the stop and a 25# mainspring.

[John]

Oh Well...I guess I'll just hafta put a few of my old beat-up pistols on the table for ya to try out. Lemme see...Wanna shoot a Rand? How 'bout a
couple of WW2-era USGI Colts? Couple WW1s?

(Ya'll stand by for in-dpeth coverage of the Commandante's summer vacation
to Lexington, NC.)

Johnny, I assure you that as soon as I manage to overcome a couple of very minor problems I am facing (like : being broke, my wife would kill me if I suggest NC for vacations, she prefers the Greek Islands, where to leave the twins etc.), I'll be there. And don't worry, any of your beaters will do fine (I am bringing along a special glove, so that the spure hammers won't bite my hand).

LoRL, and don't worry, the Greek coffee will be in my suitcase.

[1911Tuner]

No worries...All my hard-duty pistols have King's drop-in grip safeties that
baby the web...and with 1,000+ rounds a week on average...mine need to be babied. :D

The GIs will bite if ya shoot'em enough, but I ain't gonna turn those into beaters. A couple magazines oughta give ya the feel for'em. :cool:

[John]

I do not worry, I always have a Pachmayr rubber-covered grip safety with me, just in case I meet an interesting pistol with a spure hammer! LoRL the beaters should be fine with me man, I don't expect you to go get the Singer out of the bank's vault for me!

[garrettwc]

at 38$ per box of 50 rounds, what you expect?

I promise I will never complain about ammo not being on sale again.:p

[bearandoldman]

Johnny, thanks to you again for sending me that small radius firing pin stop. Moast of the muzzle flip is caused by the slide fitting the frame as it travels rearward and comes to an abrupt stop on the frame, thereby transferring its energy to cause the pistol to roatate slightly in your hand. After conversing with you I have started to load some Northeastern Bullet 200 LSWC bullets with 5.0 grains of Green Dot as I have it on hand for loading 12, 20 and 28 gage shotshells. Thsi load using a Wolff 14# progressive spring with the small radius firing pin stop and a shok buff make muzzle flip almost un noticeable, maybe an inch and barely lose sight picture. Us thias load at the range and it will run my V-10 and my Micro SA also. Thanks Johnny and pass out the begging strips to that pak of pooches ya ole redneck. :)

[amz52]

Would anyone who has done this care to post before and after photos?
:wl:
Maybe not worthless, but photos would help.

[Shoot_for_fun]

Go up to the stickys for this form, there are pictures about what they are talking about in the thread that refers to reducing recoil.

[Triaged]

Since we are talking about small radius firing pin stops...

What radius do you recomend? They come (at least mine did) with no radius at all. I rounded it over a little (less than 1/32" which is as small as my radius gage goes).

I didn't want to have a sharp edge there to kill my poor MIM kimber hammer :nono:

[1911Tuner]

Since we are talking about small radius firing pin stops...

What radius do you recomend? They come (at least mine did) with no radius at all. I rounded it over a little (less than 1/32" which is as small as my radius gage goes).

I didn't want to have a sharp edge there to kill my poor MIM kimber hammer :nono:

Well.. .032 inch IS a bit small...but it'll sure slow that slide down. :D
I like a 16th to about .075 for 5-inch and Commander-length respectively.

[Triaged]

Well.. .032 inch IS a bit small...but it'll sure slow that slide down. :D
I like a 16th to about .075 for 5-inch and Commander-length respectively.Thanks :cool: That is some good info.
I did notice it cycling a bit slow. :o I was shooting 230gr WWB, 5" Kimber, & 18# variable recoil spring. It never failed to eject but it did stop just shy of battery a few times and a slight tap on the back of the slide would send it home. I also have a newly installed EGW extractor that other than fitting to the FPS hasn't been messed with. I think the tension might be a bit on the high side.

Again thanks for the input.
For reference my Kimber FPS is 1/8" radius

...but hey...at least the hammer didn't break off :butthead:

[John]

Check the tension of the extractor. The most usual suspect, when FTRB, at least in my end of the world (and after a new extractor is fitted).

[clg]

1911Tuner
Well.. .032 inch IS a bit small...but it'll sure slow that slide down. :D
I like a 16th to about .075 for 5-inch and Commander-length
respectively.

i would like to have a small radius egw stop fitted to my 1911. what should i ask a 'smith to cut, one sixteenth of an inch and/or .075 of an inch?

as usual, the insight here is deep and specific enough to make my mechanically- and mathmatically-challenged head hurt. thanks--clg

[1911Tuner]

Howdy clg, and welcome aboard.

A .075 radius is to original spec and works well on 5-inch guns and Commanders using 16-pound recoil springs. 1/16th radius is a bit smaller, and will also do, but you're pretty well limited to a 16-pound recoil spring in Commanders. The slightly larger radius allows a bit more leeway if you want to play with different recoil spring rates. You also may want to order a fresh, 23-pound mainspring to get the full benefit of the system.

[clg]

Howdy clg, and welcome aboard.

A .075 radius is to original spec and works well on 5-inch guns and Commanders using 16-pound recoil springs. 1/16th radius is a bit smaller, and will also do, but you're pretty well limited to a 16-pound recoil spring in Commanders. The slightly larger radius allows a bit more leeway if you want to play with different recoil spring rates. You also may want to order a fresh, 23-pound mainspring to get the full benefit of the system.

1911tuner, thanks for the welcome and the quick reply. your posts as well as those of others greatly help mechanophobes like me make informative decisions and save $. i've learned quite a bit from the posters on this forum. it's tough keeping up with the current posts because i'm still reading many of the older informative threads.

soon i hope to use 16/23# recoil and mainsprings in my 1911, replacing the 17/21# factory parts, and a .075 radius egw stop. thanks again--clg

[carsten1911]

Hello John,

well, 38 § a box, this is just crazy. Obviously unscrupulous dealers prey on your laws that forbid reloading.

Went to a gun store last friday and got a SINGLE box (50rds) of Magtech FMJ 230 for 11 €, if i bought 1.000 they`d be 9,40 € a box!
Come on, move up here. its cold in winter, but living in the country you can cheaply heat a house with wood. And hacking wood is good for your grip strength... a 2. reason, you see ;-)
3. Reason: you can have more guns...
4. Reason: you can reload...
5. Reason: Theres so many Greek restaurants round her you wont notice you dont live down there any more...except you find yourself shooting a hell of a lot more!

Carsten



I won't classify myself as an "Experienced Shooter" although I've been playing with the 1911s for about 12 years now, due to the few rounds I fire per year (at 38$ per box of 50 rounds, what you expect?).

With that cleared, I have tried several of those devices that say that reduce recoil, most of the times the test was done with two similar guns, fired in quick succession. I had a hard time seeing any difference in recoil with any of them. Very slight difference with some, almost none with others.

With this little piece, I immediatelly noticed how much less the muzzle flip was, and how sweeter the gun was to shoot, the difference was so noteworthy that I could believe it.

Now, if only I was capable enough with the files, I would have it perfect, instead I have to wait for EGW to send me some pre-cut ones to fit in my pistols again, so that I do not kill the hammer pin holes of my guns. Oh yes, they are installed on each and every one of them (not that they are too many).

[John]

If I were to relocate, I would pick somewhere with more friendly gun laws and lots of sun. Otherwise, my wife won't follow me. But thanks for the invitation, appreciated.

[Rusty Guns]

Well John:
Load up the Little Wife and the Twins.
Come on over To The Treasure Coast of Florida.
We have plenty of Sun Year Round.
The Gun Laws are plenty Friendly, How many pistols do you want? No problem.
Load your own shells, all you want.
I Just can't seem to find the Dies, and Primers for 22cal long Rifle.
I've got plenty of Brass, But I just can't get the primers out.
You would have to get another Jeep, no rocks to climb.
But plenty of places to go run in the mud needs different tires and gears.

Rusty

[Ken Grant]

A trip to visit 1911 Tuner is like a trip to Mecca for Muslims for 1911 lovers.
Move to Griffin.Ga.,10 miles to the range,Wally World that keeps a good stock of WWB ammo.
Several Gunshops that treat you right and don't try to rip you off.

[Markbo]

Dang... the more I hang out here, the less I know!
I have 3 Kimber frames that I would like to try this on. I don't know the difference between a series 70 and series 80. Can someone explain that to me, and are the late model Kimbers series 80 type?

Also, where can I order these?

Thanks
Mark

[pa_guns]

Hi

I got mine from:

http://egw-guns.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=36

They took about two weeks to show up.

Sorry I don't know to much about the Kimbers.

Bob

[wichaka]

Look at the current firing pin stops on your Kimbers.

If it has cut outs on both side of the stop, toward the bottom.......then order the Series 80 style. If there's only one cut out on the right side, then order the series 70 style.

[John]

Well John:
Load up the Little Wife and the Twins.
Come on over To The Treasure Coast of Florida.
We have plenty of Sun Year Round.
The Gun Laws are plenty Friendly, How many pistols do you want? No problem.
Load your own shells, all you want.
I Just can't seem to find the Dies, and Primers for 22cal long Rifle.
I've got plenty of Brass, But I just can't get the primers out.
You would have to get another Jeep, no rocks to climb.
But plenty of places to go run in the mud needs different tires and gears.

Rusty
Thanks for the invitation Rusty, I might as well take you on that. The only issue is that there are several things that have to occur before I do such a move and also, I'll need to wait for 6 years or something before I am eligible to own guns in US. That's how long it takes to be eligible for a US passport, I think.

[pa_guns]

Hi

The US is a bit more liberal than a 6 year wait period. I have a friend who just moved over from Sweden. It took far longer to ship the pistol collection over here than it did for him to set up for ownership.

If you take a look at a Class 3 FFL license application (C&R license) it's very obviously set up for non-US citizens. That's a bit beyond simple ownership. The standard purchace forms also have the same boxes on them. All you really need is a drivers license (about a 4 hour wait in line ...). :o

Come on over!

It's even sunny in Pennsylvania this time of year (don't ask about the winters ....).

Bob

[Dustoff '68]

While we are at it, my FP stop on my Colt Series 70 has a cutout in the lower left corner, and has a #1 stamped on the stop...any idea why that is?

[John]

If you take a look at a Class 3 FFL license application (C&R license) it's very obviously set up for non-US citizens. That's a bit beyond simple ownership. The standard purchace forms also have the same boxes on them. All you really need is a drivers license (about a 4 hour wait in line ...).

Class III? Isn't that for fully-auto firearms? I do not care much for these. Does C&R allow you to own 1911s???

[OD*]

While we are at it, my FP stop on my Colt Series 70 has a cutout in the lower left corner, and has a #1 stamped on the stop...any idea why that is?
They used a Series 80 FPS, no big deal, makes no difference, the 1 stamped on it signifies it's a standard and not over-sized stop.

[1911Tuner]

Looking from the rear of the gun, a cutout in the lower left corner is the standard clearance cut for the ejector...for both types. A cut in the lower RIGHT corner is made on the Series 80 stops for frame lever clearance.

[OD*]

lower left corner
Eagle eye Johnny, I over looked that completely. :o

[garrettwc]

Class III? Isn't that for fully-auto firearms? I do not care much for these. Does C&R allow you to own 1911s???

John it is a little confusing isn't it. You have to love American gun terminology.

Class III, or as they are correctly called Title 2 firearms are indeed full auto. The class III if my memory is correct comes from the fact that under Title 2 of the firearms law, subsection III is the part that deals with full auto weapons and so the weapons are nicknamed "Class III".

What pa_guns is referring to is a class/type 03 Federal Firearms License. There is more than one type of FFL. The 03 version, commonly known as the Curio & Relic license allows you to collect firearms that meet a specific criteria and are on a published list that is updated regularly by the BATFE. This is the type of FFL that folks that collect WWI & WWII mil-surp rifles and such commonly have. With this license you can purchase directly from importers/wholesalers of any C&R weapon, even across state lines, and have the weapon shipped directly to you.

The Sistema 1927 model of 1911 is considered a C&R so yes there are some 1911s that can be purchased with this type of license. Old German Lugers and Walther P1/P38s are also on the list.

[Kruzr]

Dang... the more I hang out here, the less I know!
I have 3 Kimber frames that I would like to try this on. I don't know the difference between a series 70 and series 80. Can someone explain that to me, and are the late model Kimbers series 80 type?

Also, where can I order these?

Thanks
Mark
Kimbers come from the factory with a Series 80 FP stop. If you are sure the push rod is flush with the frame, you could use a Series 70 type also.

[John]

John it is a little confusing isn't it. You have to love American gun terminology.

Class III, or as they are correctly called Title 2 firearms are indeed full auto. The class III if my memory is correct comes from the fact that under Title 2 of the firearms law, subsection III is the part that deals with full auto weapons and so the weapons are nicknamed "Class III".

What pa_guns is referring to is a class/type 03 Federal Firearms License. There is more than one type of FFL. The 03 version, commonly known as the Curio & Relic license allows you to collect firearms that meet a specific criteria and are on a published list that is updated regularly by the BATFE. This is the type of FFL that folks that collect WWI & WWII mil-surp rifles and such commonly have. With this license you can purchase directly from importers/wholesalers of any C&R weapon, even across state lines, and have the weapon shipped directly to you.

The Sistema 1927 model of 1911 is considered a C&R so yes there are some 1911s that can be purchased with this type of license. Old German Lugers and Walther P1/P38s are also on the list.
Thanks for the clarification, Lugers you can get plenty of them here. Go to Crete and almost every man on the island has one! LORL, the police pretends that they do not exist and so do the Cretans! You have to love those guys down there.

I guess a Systema can be pretty nice, to ... start with!

[pa_guns]

Hi

There are two different class III's.

With an FFL a class one is a license to buy and sell modern firearms.

A class 3 FFL is a license to buy (not sell) collectable firearms in interstate commerce. More or less that's stuff more than 50 years old. Just by chance there are a few interesting 1911's that qualify (like say all of the WWI and WWII production ...). :)

When it comes to firearms, class three is indeed stuff like machine guns. That's something that the government has made it a bit tough to own.

Bob