Laser Sights

[Black Jack]

Can anybody give me a comparison between the LaserMax internal laser sight and the Crimson Trace laser grip sight? Any preferences? Why might one be better than the other?

Thanks for your feedback........

[threerounds]

I have a set of Crimson Trace on a Springfield 9mm and I like them. I have the front activation switch but they also have a set with a switch on the left and right side of the grips. They take a few minutes getting use to. You will catch yourseld trying to use the hard sights on the laser dot. I have only seen and handled one gun with Lasermax sights on it and I don't like them for a couple of reasons. The laser tends to get a little smutty after firing a few rounds and it blinks or pulses. The blinking is really annoying to me but that's just my opinon. Another thing to consider is cost, the Crimson Trace sights are considerablely less expensive. I bought my Crimson Traces new for $239.00. The Lasermax sights are around $400.00.

[Maxx2257]

Personally I like the lasermax because they allow you to any grip that you are comfortable with and the blinking is actually beneficial. The purpose behind it is that the human eye is attracted to movement so it makes it easier to see your dot.

[scooter]

The user can adjust them to POA/POI just like a scope Ive heard if you want the lasermax dead on you have to send the sidearm to lasermax for zeroing.Dont know if its true but I wont send mine away for GKHL to aim sumthin that should be simple for the user to do...................Also the lasergrips have a MOM switch AND a master switch..turn the master on and squeeze the grip laser on relax grip laser off NO fumbling to turn the laser on in a hurryhttp://forum.m1911.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

[John]

I'll never be able to use any device that requires you to alter pressure on your middle finger, to activate or deactivate. For years, I've been trained to use that finger to put the most pressure on the gun's grip, so it is totally against my instincts to release pressure there.

Also, some years ago, I've tried a set of CT grips, in a gun shop in LV. I switched it on, from the switch it had on the bottom of the right grip panel, and tried it out. Then I tried to switch it off, but the switch was gone, nowhere to be found. The little thing had broken of. The store owner wanted me to pay for damaging the grips. Long story! If they make them this flimsy, I don't want one on my gun.

I would go with the LaserMax.

[wlambert]

I have Crimson Trace grips on my 92FS and like them just fine. I used them during a combat training course and thought they allowed for more accurate, faster shooting. They were especially helpful when shooting from the hip or other odd positions.

Some times you got an odd effect as the laser cut through the gun smoke. You can't beat them for low light conditions.

wlambert

[MLee]

I have the Crimson Trace on my Beretta 92G, as well as my AR 15, and the Lasermax on a Glock 36. The Lasermax works better on Glocks than Crimson Trace, because until recently you had to send your Glock to the Crimson Trace factory to have them installed - haven't been able to evaluate the new Crimson Trace G (grip) models for the Glocks. I like the continuous beam of the Crimson Trace better, as well as the ability to adjust POA to POI. The Lasermax are fixed unless sent to factory. I am also waiting for the time that the Lasermax dies on the Glock just when I need it - the location of the Lasermax (recoil rod) and recoil of the .45ACP in the small Glock seem to me to be a combination for ultimate failure at some time in the future. The Crimson Trace models have always seemed to be rugged and able to stand up to a lot of punishment.

Mike

[evolvedguns]

Do you think it would distracting to put a laser sight on a 1911 that already had tritium sights? Has anyone tried this?

[Moose63845]

Do you think it would distracting to put a laser sight on a 1911 that already had tritium sights? Has anyone tried this?
Not at all, you are either using the tritium sights or the laser sight to aim. It's an either or, so if your using one you wont be focused on the other so I don't see how it could be distracting. I used my friends M6 on my Glock that has the Tritium sights on it, and didn't find anything distracting.

[Baldy]

I have Crimson Laser Sights on a SP-101 revolver 21/4" barrel and I think their the greatest thing since peanut butter. For a old man like me who has failing eyes they are great in low or shadow conditions. I have mind set at 25' COM. They will hold a sight beam out to 50' and be on but I never tried them any farther. They are a great help to me and I practice weekly with them. I even practice with my glasses off and I can still hit COM at 20'. I am happy with that as most everything is a big blurr without my glasses. :)

[evolvedguns]

Two things I am having trouble understanding:

1. how does the on switch work for the lasermax? I see a switch on the OUTSIDE of the slide stop, but I think the only part they replace is the guide rod.
2. Can anyone confirm whether the lasermax on 1911 is adjustable? Their website says it is, but a prior post on this thread says otherwise.

Thanks!

[Nikolai]

Two things I am having trouble understanding:

1. how does the on switch work for the lasermax? I see a switch on the OUTSIDE of the slide stop, but I think the only part they replace is the guide rod.
2. Can anyone confirm whether the lasermax on 1911 is adjustable? Their website says it is, but a prior post on this thread says otherwise.

Thanks!

Greetings,
To clear things up, the 1911 Lasermax is the only Lasermax model that is adjustable. All the others are 'dead on' from the factory, and should those become out of aim, they require a return trip to the factory to be adjusted. The 1911 model of the Lasermax has 2 small set screws toward the diode which are externally adjusted with a supplied wrench.

The on/off switch works by rotating the black switch on the outside of the slide stop up and down. They supply a slide stop with their laser systems to replace your factory or otherwise slide stop to be compatible with their switch and laser system. The laser components also replace the guide rod of the 1911, and uses a conventional recoil spring and operates in the same fashion as a regular FLGR, except the Lasermax system utilizes a recoil buffer, which I don't believe is necessary (it may or may not be).

The system in my experience is reliable, efficient, and worth the extra cost over LaserGrips if an alternative sighting system is desired.

Hope that helps.

-Nikolai

[evolvedguns]

Yes that was very helpful. I didn't realize the slide stop is replaced as well. That is unfortunate.

[Nikolai]

Greetings,
If it offers any consolation, the supplied slide stop appeared to me to be a quality piece. There is no weakness to any part of the Lasermax system, by design.

For all intensive purposes, I no longer own my Lasermax as it was sold to a forum member here years ago. I experienced ZERO malfunctions with any part of their system and was completely happy and impressed by the quality of their equipment. I have no affiliation, just sharing my experience with their product.

Crimson's LaserGrips are another alternative to laser sighting systems and from what I've read (I've never handled them), they're a great product as well. For my purposes, the Lasermax allowed me to use whatever grip combination I wanted and was completely internal, allowing me to use whatever gear I wanted without worry of compatibility.

To each their own, both are great products, but have different applications and different systems set up to accomplish a common function. Both have their pro's and con's, but keep in mind, they're different animals in design and execution, and price reflects that. Both work great, but they're not the same machine and can't really be fairly compared to each other.

If a laser site is what you want, you won't be fouled by either. One just needs to decide what he needs, and what his application will be.

-Nikolai

[John]

On the Laser Grips issue, I would like to share a story that happened to me some years ago, in a gunshop in Las Vegas. I was visiting the city for business, and I was living with a friend, who is a cop there. So of course, I took the opportunity to visit several toy stores in the area. In one of them, I tried a 1911 with a set of Laser Grips on it.

The lady behind the counter gave us the pistol to try out the laser. I pressed the switch and the beam didn't come on. So she said "Turn that small switch at the bottom of the right grip panel.", which I did. Horror of horrors, the switch did move to the on position, but it also flew away! The lady was frustrated and wanted me to pay for the now broken grips, thank God my friend, the cop, was present all the time, and he saw what happened, so he exercised his ... authority and told her to cut the .... you-know-what.

I do not know if Laser Grips have changed the design of that small switch, but the one I saw was so tiny and flimsy that I would never pay the money they were asking for a set of these grips. Too easy to damage it and loose 300$ just like that.

I am not bashing Laser Grips or anything, I am just saying what happened to me with this thing some years ago. If they've improved it, I have no way to know.

[evolvedguns]

I agree with John that the plastic switches these systems put on the outside of the gun (whether the slide stop or base of the grip) provide a weak point. Aesthetically, they have drawbacks as well. I have been a little baffled at the cost of these laser systems too given how a simple laser pointer is dirt cheap. I understand it must be rugedized and there are a few other parts like a guide rod involved, but $400 is a little out there.

[Nikolai]

Greetings,
Evolved, if you're entertaining the internal option, you may consider posting a WTB post in the sale forum, and see if anyone is willing to part with theirs for a good price.

That's where mine was sold.

Best of luck, let us know what you decide to go with, if any.

-Nikolai

[evolvedguns]

Greetings,
Evolved, if you're entertaining the internal option, you may consider posting a WTB post in the sale forum, and see if anyone is willing to part with theirs for a good price.

That's where mine was sold.

Best of luck, let us know what you decide to go with, if any.

-Nikolai
Hello Nikolai,

Unfortunately...as of right now neither the lasermax or crimsontrace is exactly what I'd like. I think I will have to hold off on getting either.

Thanks!
Evolved Guns

[Woodman]

On the Laser Grips issue, I would like to share a story that happened to me some years ago, in a gunshop in Las Vegas. I was visiting the city for business, and I was living with a friend, who is a cop there. So of course, I took the opportunity to visit several toy stores in the area. In one of them, I tried a 1911 with a set of Laser Grips on it.

The lady behind the counter gave us the pistol to try out the laser. I pressed the switch and the beam didn't come on. So she said "Turn that small switch at the bottom of the right grip panel.", which I did. Horror of horrors, the switch did move to the on position, but it also flew away! The lady was frustrated and wanted me to pay for the now broken grips, thank God my friend, the cop, was present all the time, and he saw what happened, so he exercised his ... authority and told her to cut the .... you-know-what.

I do not know if Laser Grips have changed the design of that small switch, but the one I saw was so tiny and flimsy that I would never pay the money they were asking for a set of these grips. Too easy to damage it and loose 300$ just like that.

I am not bashing Laser Grips or anything, I am just saying what happened to me with this thing some years ago. If they've improved it, I have no way to know.

From what I understand, Crimson Trace's customer service is very good, and should the switch break, they will fix them.

I have shot a couple of 1911's with the Crimson Trace grip. Overall they work well but I would only be able to use them in low light. I am slightly colorblind and have a hard time seeing the red dot. Also, I hold my grip high, and tend to block the beam with my trigger finger.

[Texas Boy86]

Well when I get my 1911 in 4 months or so when i turn 21 I will likely get a laser max soon after do to the "blinking laser" I am also partially color blind and cannot see a regular red laser almost at all. Also I was wondering does laser max have any plans to come out with a green laser model? I dont care for trituim sights I think their distracting. I think semi luminous white dots are better. Would this laser max system be good for concealed carry? And can you get a stainless slide stop with the laser? Got my eye on a SA black stainless and dont wanna ruin the beautiful asthetics with a blued slide stop when i get it. Also i did a search for the laser max site and nuttin came up. Can some one gimme the link? Thanks.

[Nikolai]

Well when I get my 1911 in 4 months or so when i turn 21 I will likely get a laser max soon after do to the "blinking laser" I am also partially color blind and cannot see a regular red laser almost at all. Also I was wondering does laser max have any plans to come out with a green laser model? I dont care for trituim sights I think their distracting. I think semi luminous white dots are better. Would this laser max system be good for concealed carry? And can you get a stainless slide stop with the laser? Got my eye on a SA black stainless and dont wanna ruin the beautiful asthetics with a blued slide stop when i get it. Also i did a search for the laser max site and nuttin came up. Can some one gimme the link? Thanks.

Greetings, TB.
As far as any LaserMax models with a non-red laser, you'd have to email them and ask. To answer another question, you can go HERE (http://www.lasermax.com) and do that. LaserMax will work for concealed carry, as it only adds a fraction (I believe .7) of an ounce of weight to the pistol, and it's fully internal. The only changes to the outside of the pistol will be the polymer switch that snugs against the slide stop on either side. Neither of those should snag on anything or otherwise cause any problems. As far as stainless, I believe there are 2 models of the LaserMax available, one in 'blued', and the other stainless, IIRC. That should pin down your question.

Either way, a gun is more beautiful if it's useful. If you DO have to have an off colored small part, no big deal. Targets are the best beauty pictures.

-Nikolai

[evolvedguns]

Greetings, TB.
As far as any LaserMax models with a non-red laser, you'd have to email them and ask. To answer another question, you can go HERE (http://www.lasermax.com) and do that. LaserMax will work for concealed carry, as it only adds a fraction (I believe .7) of an ounce of weight to the pistol, and it's fully internal. The only changes to the outside of the pistol will be the polymer switch that snugs against the slide stop on either side. Neither of those should snag on anything or otherwise cause any problems. As far as stainless, I believe there are 2 models of the LaserMax available, one in 'blued', and the other stainless, IIRC. That should pin down your question.

Either way, a gun is more beautiful if it's useful. If you DO have to have an off colored small part, no big deal. Targets are the best beauty pictures.

-Nikolai
Does anyone have a picture (close up?) of what the switch on the slide stop looks like for the lasermax?

[Nikolai]

Greetings,
I don't, personally. Without checking for myself, LaserMax may on their website, or a Google search may yield results.

If the pic will aid in answering a question, feel free to PM me and ask or post here. I'll try to help as much as I can (without having a LaserMax in front of me).

-Nikolai

[Texas Boy86]

Does anyone have a picture (close up?) of what the switch on the slide stop looks like for the lasermax?
Heres a close up of tha slide stop for a 1911 on their site. Lokk at right top corner
http://www.lasermax.com/products/lms-1911s.php

[evolvedguns]

Thanks Texas Boy86,

Does anyone else think it looks quite snaggable? It does to me.

[John]

I would say so. I also wonder why these gizmos sell for 400$, when a laser with the intensity of those used in those things costs less than a dollar. Nothing against LaserMax, I have the same question about all those things, LaserGrips etc. It just doens't make sense.

[Texas Boy86]

Yeah they are a lil over priced i mean a rail laser can be had for under 100 but who wants a rail on their 1911,seriously? Lets see laser max or new rock? Hmm what a choice. Hey get em both that what credit cards are for LOL! I have seen one of these laser maxes outa the box and the slidestop laser switch is filed smooth. I dont personally think they will snag.
And no prob evolvedguns.

[Nikolai]

Greetings,
In my experience, I had no issues of snagging or otherwise hanging up with the LaserMax installed. Pricey, yes, which is why I always tell potential buyers to put money elsewhere. But if you want it.. that won't matter.

Buy wisely, gents.

-Nikolai

[Velocette]

I have a CT lasergrip on my full sized 1911 that I find to be marginally usable. I carry a compact 1911 .45 with tritium night sights and / or a Taurus Titanium .38 snubby with CT laser. I believe that the laser sights are great for a carry weapon but much less so on a target or fun weapon. The laser is not visible in direct sunlight beyond about 10 feet (if that). At night, or indoors it is awesome. Outdoors in daylight, virtually useless. With the Titanium Taurus snub, using +P .38 sp. double action, rapid fire, I can easily keep all 5 rds within 4" at 25 ft. When I say rapid fire I mean all 5 rds in 5 seconds or less. I was never able to even come close to that with the open sights on that light weight bouncing little revolver.
I intend to buy a CT lasersight for my compact .45 and probably sell the CT lasersight on the full sized 1911. Too bad that they are not interchangeable.
Bottom line - - The lasersights are great for a combat or carry weapon and much less usable for a general purpose or target weapon.
However, a word of warning, always practice without the laser too for the occasion when the light goes out and you gotta shoot,

Roger

[Ping Ping]

Would this laser max system be good for concealed carry?
Finally, someone asks this question!

NO!

Rail lights and lasers are GREAT tools for military and LEO applications, because, more often than not, they have the element of surprise. They make for GREAT entry tools and also offer the advantage of ultimately discouraging a perpetrator, or target. Looking down and seeing a little red dot on your chest... well... gets your attention.

Concealed carry, or personal defense in a home invasion is a WHOLLY other story. Think about it! If you are a DETERMIND bad guy, who has just commited several felonies BEFORE you were inside the premisis, and someone shouts, "I am armed and will defend my home", the minute you see that little diode flashing, in the direction of the voice, thats the first place you're going to empty your weapon into! I, for one, am not going to give Mr. Bad Guy a nice, precise little dot to shoot at.

Second scenario: You're in a theatre parking lot, late at night and someone grabs your date. You draw your weapon and look for cover, again shouting to them to "desist"! You now are looking for your little red dot to appear. You're not using the front sight. In all likelyhood, that red dot is going to be many feet from your intended target and in the time it takes you to orient your vision to where ever it is and get it to the relative viscinity it SHOULD be, either you, or your date, has suffered death, or serious bodily injury.

Dont take my word for this. Ask any civilian tactics trainer. Dots and rail lights will get you shot.

This said, they are fun toys to take to the range, or shoot gophurs with at dusk.

One last thing. Try finding a holster with a channel for a lasermax slide stop switch.

[John]

One last thing. Try finding a holster with a channel for a lasermax slide stop switch.

Or one for concealing a light rail equipped pistol. Good Luck!

[Texas Boy86]

i wouldt have a problem with the slide stop because if i carry a 1911 it will be lower back with grip safety side facing out. u are right about lasers and lights making you a target though.

[Ping Ping]

i wouldt have a problem with the slide stop because if i carry a 1911 it will be lower back with grip safety side facing out. u are right about lasers and lights making you a target though.

Texasboy,


If youre not experienced at CCW, you might want to start a thread on here and ask the membership about SOB (Small Of Back) carry. I'm willing to wager that you'd get some great insight and food for thought. Especially the part about carrying a 1911 with the thumb safety out.

Just an idea. Best of luck and stay safe.

Ping

[John]

I would never carry a 1911 in the SOB, in that way. The pistol muzzle will surely cross your body, as you are drawing it, too dangerous. The only way I would carry like that, is using the Horseshoe Leather SOB holster. And I kind of like it carrying like that, despite all the saying of what will happen if you fall on your back. I have never fall on my back, at least during the last 40 years. I do not plan to start doing it now.

[Texas Boy86]

Hmm guess i didnt think about the muzzle crossing my body, which would be bad, I dont intend to fall on my back either.I will be new to CCW when i get my 1911, soon i hope, and i was thinking of either carring it in SOB or with an inside the waistband hip holster. Even if the muzzle did cross my body though wouldnt my finger be off the trigger until i have aquired the target in my sights? Im pretty new to handguns alltogether so sorry if i ask some really rookie questions. ive been doing some outside reading so i can be more acclimated to the material ill be learing to obtain my CHL and tactics used in self defence situations. Any good advice is welcome, I primarily joined m1911.org to learn about the 1911 and how to use it correctly. I think i have the basics down now :D , and theres always room to learn more.

[John]

Don't forget the Cooper's Rules. One of them says "finger off the trigger etc" but another says "do not point your muzzle to anything you do not want destroyed". If you think about those four rules, you will understand.

[Ping Ping]

I will be new to CCW when i get my 1911, soon i hope, and i was thinking of either carring it in SOB or with an inside the waistband hip holster.

Texas Boy,

I admire any man who has the courage to say "I dont know". That man will end up the wisest of all.

Do yourself a favor. Go to http://www.blade-tech.com/In-the-Waistband-Universal-Fits-All-Holster-pr-814.html and order yourself one of these. It's as good an IWB holster as there is, regardless of what anyone will tell you. It's lightning fast, easy to wear and wont break the bank. It will adjust to whatever belt width, or cant you choose and provides a very stable and secure home for your pistol; and wont break the bank. Of all the holsters I have, my blade tech is still in the rotation.

Put it on your belt at between 3:30 and 4:30. Wear it even when youre not carrying to get used to having a holster in your belt. Do a lot of presentation drills with it at home.

In the next ten years, you will buy and discard many holsters, but your blade tech will never spend much time in a box.

[John]

With the only drawback of all Kydex holsters, they are hard on the gun's finish.

[Nikolai]

Greetings,
While laser sights may or may not be best suited for certain situations, that wasn't the intention of this thread.

FWIW, I had no problems with any of my holsters when my Kimber TLE RL had a LaserMax installed.

Leather, kydex, or other. The 'tabs' on the slide stop caused no ill-effect.

YMMV.

-Nikolai

[Texas Boy86]

Thanks very much ping ping. I will put an order in for taht holster as soon as i have aquired my RIA 1911. It really made my day when i saw that it was IDPA legal as I want to do some competition in the local IDPA league. I dont mind if the finish get roughed up by the kydex a bit. adds character. But will the kydex marr a stainless finish? If it does no biggie thats what flitz and a soft rag is for. I cant justify spending 400 on a laser when i could have another RIA with some extra mods from brownells for that price. O well when i get some extra silly money ill try out one of those laser maxes.

[Ten_Ring]

One last thing. Try finding a holster with a channel for a lasermax slide stop switch.

FOBUS does just fine.

[nitramretep]

Finally some one speaks the truth....Ping Ping hit the nail on the head. I have seen people at the range trying to stop the laser dot from shaking...they don't understand the distance v amplification of movement. Basically they tend to rely on the dot instead of the sights....pray the batteries hold up. The rail lights are a real hassle if you holster them and need a fast draw. Both of these gadgets make a great target for the perp.

Spend the money on professional training and practicing in the dark, using a separate Surefire Light and using glow sights.

The price of lights is driven by demand; I saw a fellow buy the S & W hand cannon (500 w/15" barrel) and asked the dealer to put a laser sight on it? How about wheels!
So long as the untrained keep buying them the prices will stay in the stratosphere. My Surefire cost $85.00 three years ago..I can blind someone with it and pulse the switch to strobe them..in any case they will never know my true location.

When you buy a laser think of a huge arrow pointing at you!

[Ten_Ring]

When you buy a laser think of a huge arrow pointing at you!

I'm not too worried about the red dot giving my postion away...... the muzzel flash will do that. When I draw it, it will be used.;)

[nitramretep]

True a muzzle flash does give some indication but not in all conditions. Generally the flash is less noticeable as compared to the sound. The laser/light will for certain provide a constant point of aim for a bad person. In effect the light will confirm the audio placement of your position.

The laser gives a distinct indication of your location to the shooter, but also to any other shooters that may be part of the bad guy's group.

The Surefirelight is a better bet, but even more effective is training and practice in your home at the range and in different light conditions AND different positions; too many people practice shooting standing upright..I practice on the ground from my left, right and on my back. I also spend a lot of time with others practicing dry fires and as many positions as we can imagine. It helps to get familiar with your pistol.

The laser is great if you really know how to use it and a true tatical advantage over the bad guy, trouble is most people might find themselves being woken up by a noise half asleep and can't even unholster their gun properly. Simplicity is the best approach; lasers and rack lights are not simple and as Ping Ping said they are used when you or I have the advantage of surprise.

You should also practice refuge tactics with your family and let them know what you are going to do in an emergency and how they should act.

Also remember the laser might be knocked off true in a fast moving situation; that will cause you to act by pumping more rounds out; it's an instinctive behavior. In a threat situation I can assure you that the laser button will be pushed on by your instinctive behavior and not turned off. People do not react as they imagine in real face to face conflicts.

The less gadgets and more training with a basic weapon is the best defense. Also most gun fights occur within several feet of another person....like 6 feet or maybe 8 feet. IMHO the recent shooting in NYC PD showed the danger of magazine blasting..people tend to blow the entire magazine without good training and practice. Those were professional police officers under a lot of pressure, their actions may have been justified.

[Ten_Ring]

nitramretep,
I agree with you 100%. There is nothing that will out perform practice. Knowing your weapon and every other little piece of info you can get gives you a clear advantage over the badguy.
The laser is meant to be a secondary sighting system to aid in target engagement when you are unable to get, for what ever reasons, a good clean sight picture, not as a primary sight, (some will arrgue that one).
The statement I made refered to that, if I have to draw my weapon and do acitivate the laser, I'm already firing rounds down range.
To me it serves as a little piece of reassurance that I have a way to aim in the event I am unable to raise the weapon.

[Moose63845]

Ahh you don't even need sights, if you carry a gun for defense you should know it good enough that it points where you know it will form muscle memory and you can get hits on target without a front sight at all. Think about it, how easy would it be for a sight to get knocked off in a fight? If that happens then what?

[John]

Think about it, how easy would it be for a sight to get knocked off in a fight?

I have never been in a fight thus far (and I pray to God I never will), but on my pistols I would say pretty difficult.

[Moose63845]

I have never been in a fight thus far (and I pray to God I never will), but on my pistols I would say pretty difficult.
I've seen front sights fly off of pistols while being fired, Colt Gold Cup sights have been known to break apart, if it can happen be preparred for it.

[John]

I've seen that too, but:

From the number of pistols you've seen fired, how many have lost their front or rear sight?

I do not argue that it can happen, but it's not as if it is happening with 80% of the pistols fired, right? So it can happen, but it's rare.

[Ten_Ring]

If I break any of my sights, it's because I've run out of ammo and am beating them to death with it.

[Rifleman]

I concur with Ping Ping's comments:

"Dont take my word for this. Ask any civilian tactics trainer. Dots and rail lights will get you shot."

"This said, they are fun toys to take to the range, or shoot gophurs with at dusk."
______________

My thoughts: Lasers on a pistol sure helps with trigger control training. Thats about all they are good for. They are great to use as a teaser with the cat (pistol unloaded :D )!

Check six
shannon

[nitramretep]

Better yet train at the range and learn to shoot from different positions. Do dry runs in your home at night, no lights, just try find your way around. The more you practice sans the gadgets the more of a survivor you become. Try shooting at the range on your back. Try to unholster a pistol while lying in bed without giving any outward signs of movement. Teach your family to use points of refuge and what to do if the worst happens. This training cost nothing but will save you and your family. A $450.00 laser light will not, unless you're on a SWAT team.

I will end my sermon and get down from the soap box!