9 Mm Puwer

[CHARLES]

I Am Looking To Reload 9 Mm Jacked Bullets Fir 50 Yrds Target Shooting. I Would Like To Use Win Wst Powder But Can Not Fime Data. The Burn Rate Is 15 N320 Is 14 Faster Bullseye Is 7 Win 231 Is 19. Wic Wst Should Be Able To Use. Any Help

[Recon]

I use both Win 231 and Hodgdon's Clays in 9mm with great results. I'm sure there are numerous other powders that would be good as well. I would stay with published load data from reputable manufacturers, however.

[Gammon]

I would use 231 instead of WST, its cheaper and produces great results. Four grains of 231 is a good starting point with a 125gr jacketed bullet. You should get a little under 1000fps out of a four inch barrel.

[Gammon]

PS Beware of Clays! I have had some serious pressure problems with this powder. While trying to drive a 130gr lead bullet to 1000fps out of a 3.25 inch barreled S&W 6906, I found that the cases became so distorted that the spent primers were falling out and jamming the gun. Clays is a low pressure powder, not suited for 9mm applications. I have also had problems with this powder in .45 ACP loadings, but that's another story. I won't touch the stuff.

[Recon]

My experience with Clays and the 9mm has been positive. In Hodgdon's Basic Reloading Manual 2004 they recommend a max of 3.7 grains with a 125 grain bullet. I went through 3,000+ of these, this year alone, at 3.5 grains with no problem whatsoever in a 5906. They chronographed at just over 1,000 fps. I'm also using Clays in 38 Special, 44 Magnum and 45 ACP.

[Gammon]

I have had pressure problems that I mentioned in 9mm, but I think I had to use 4.0 to get 1000 fps out of my 6906. I also experienced pressure problems in .45 ACP, using 4.8. It seems that Clays develops more pressure as the temperature drops. The load that worked fine at 60 deg F developed so much pressure that the primers were being blown back into the firing pin hole after the ammo was allowed to cool to 20 deg F. I wouldn't touch the stuff; 231 is a better choice for all non magnum loads.

[Recon]

Dear Gammon:

Given the results you've described with Clays I don't blame you for avoiding it as should anyone seeing problems with reloading components. I can assure you that if that was the result I was getting I wouldn't be using it either.

All I can tell you is we have lots shooters here using Clays primarily for Cowboy Action Shooting along with some IDPA and everyone seems to be happy with it. Its surprising that our experiences with it could be so radically different.

I guess anyone interested in it will have to make their own determination as to its performance.

Happy shooting!

[Gammon]

Clays is bacically a low pressure powder. That is probaby why the CAS shooters love it; they use light loads. When you use it in higher pressure applications, you are inviting disaster. I wish I had some of the 9mm cases with the primers blown out, or the 45 cases with the primers that had no firing pin marks because internal pressure had blown the primer into the firing pin hole, to show you. If you continue to use Clays, keep in mind that it develops more pressure as the temperature drops.
PS I think one reason you're happy with Clays is that you are using low power loads. Most of my competitive shooting is IPSC where your ammunition must meet a power factor. 9mm is minor caliber which requires a 125 power factor. This is determined by multiplying the weight of the bullet (in grains) times the velocity (in feet per second) and then dividing by 1000. Using this formula, a 125 grain bullet would have to travel 1000 fps to barely meet the 125 power factor. I don't think 3.7gr of Clays will do that. If you doubt me, chrono your loads.

[Recon]

Those interested in pistol powders may find this poll and accompanying comments interesting. :)

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=82142&highlight=poll%3A

[Recon]

Dear Gammon:

RE: "PS I think one reason you're happy with Clays is that you are using low power loads. Most of my competitive shooting is IPSC where your ammunition must meet a power factor. 9mm is minor caliber which requires a 125 power factor. This is determined by multiplying the weight of the bullet (in grains) times the velocity (in feet per second) and then dividing by 1000. Using this formula, a 125 grain bullet would have to travel 1000 fps to barely meet the 125 power factor. I don't think 3.7gr of Clays will do that. If you doubt me, chrono your loads."

We chronographed them again today with a temperature of 34 degrees and got a five shot average of 1,006 fps @ 15ft. for a power factor of 125,750. There were none of the problem indicators that you experienced. We used a 5906, Win WSP and various brands of brass. The 3.7 grs. chronographed at 1045 fps, again, without any of the pressure indicators you experienced and at a power factor of 130,625.

[robertbank]

You didn't mention Unique. I use 4.7 - 5.0 gr, and have had excellent results with the 9MM, 4.7 goes with my cast 124 gr bullets from wheel weights and I use 5. gr behind 124 gr FMJ. Lyman lists it as a good choice for this cartridge.