Norinco!!!?

[Gitch-U]

Huh....I didn't know Norinco made 1911's. I know Norinco makes M14SA's and that some of the parts for those M14's are not heat treated correctly (left soft).

With that being said, have any of you Norinco 1911 owners experieced soft metal damage to your 1911's? Or, maybe it isn't an issue with their pistols?

[John]

Soft metal in a Nork 1911? No way, their metals are some of the best you can find. I wish I could get one too.

[surf99]

The M14 receiver weakness seems to be unique to that model as far as the
brand goes (Norinco) Wern't the last version imported correctly hardened?
Anyway, what John said. The Norinco 1911 is the basis for many a carry
pistol because of the strength of the steel, among other things.

[Gitch-U]

The M14 receiver weakness seems to be unique to that model as far as the
brand goes (Norinco) Wern't the last version imported correctly hardened?
Anyway, what John said. The Norinco 1911 is the basis for many a carry
pistol because of the strength of the steel, among other things.


I don't know, you may be right...Since we can't import the newer versions here in the US, all we have are the older ones with HT problems.

[SargeMO]

I did dee it in Norinco 1911 A1, but it was 13 years ago. One of our deputies brought one to qualifications. He had some FTE issues on the range, and I tensioned his extractor. He brought it back about 200 rounds later for me to look it over. There was significant battering of the barrel on either side of the chamber. I suggested that he sell it or trade it on a Colt, and he did just that. Kinda soured me on Norks, to tell you the truth.

[surf99]

Sounds like possibly a link alignment? Anyway, the Frame, and slide are what
is usually reffered to as per metal strength in the Norinco. The barrels are
as a rule, pretty true. For sure there will be exceptions.

[1911Tuner]

I did see it in Norinco 1911 A1, but it was 13 years ago. One of our deputies brought one to qualifications. He had some FTE issues on the range, and I tensioned his extractor. He brought it back about 200 rounds later for me to look it over. There was significant battering of the barrel on either side of the chamber. I suggested that he sell it or trade it on a Colt, and he did just that. Kinda soured me on Norks, to tell you the truth.

That's apparently a fairly common problem with the Norincos. I've seen it in about 1 in 10 (updated data) that's a result of poor barrel fit rather than bad steel. Either excessive horizontal play in the slide leads to slap-seating of the lugs...or a linkdown/drop timing issue that knocks the front corners off the lugs. Correcting the problem is a matter of swaging/peening the frame rails to lower the slide in order to get more vertical lug engagement, and installing a gunsmith-fit barrel. If the rails can be lowered enough to get 90% vertical engagement in the slide, a Kart Easy-Fit barrel will work nicely.

Aside from that 10% frequency, the guns are...as I've described'em many times...as tough as a chunk of pig iron.

[Gitch-U]

Interesting stuff....

I had a Norico M14SA that had HT problems. The receiver was fine (not to mil spec, but fine). The bolt was another story, very soft. After time at the range it started to lose headspace. That's when it was time to replace with a USGI bolt.

That's why I had to ask about their 1911's.

[1911Tuner]

Sarge...Those lugs look somethin' like this?

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e243/1911Tuner/Lugs.jpg

[SargeMO]

Hi Johnny,

At 200 rounds, his lugs were showing some peening, but not nearly that bad. The obvious battering was at the chamber mouth, on both sides. I may not have stated that as clearly as I should have, the first time. I figured it was a result of poor barrel fitting, but the barrel seemed dead soft too. It needed rebarreled if he was going to keep it. He didn't want to spend a lot of money on it, and I (his lazy FTO) didn't want to spend a lot of time working on it. I was wearing a LOT of hats at the S/O in those days, and barely had time to clean my own '45 Ithaca.

Take care & thanks for your input.

[1911Tuner]

Ah! Gotcha...

The chamber face damage happens because, although the Chinese did a bang-up job of replicating the Ithaca-cloned "Model of the 1911A1" pistols,
the one thing they either didn't notice...didn't consider as important...or flat
didn't care about, was the slight angle (Undercut toward the bottom) on the chamber face that compensates for the barrel tilt as it goes into lockup.
Ironically, the tighter the barrel fit, the more pronounced the damage, up to the point that the required clearance was obtained...or the owner noticed that it was getting badly beaten up and sought the aid of a smith...who usually refit another barrel. No sense in trying to establish the angle, since once the hard chrome plating was breached, it would likely start to peel off.

This lack of clearance angle is the sole reason that only rarely do the barrels have the required 32nd inch gap...and the biggest majority sit flush with the feed ramp.

I like the Norinco 1911s a lot...rough though they be...but any that I buy I tend to accept going into it that there's at least a 10% chance that I'll be doin' a little surgery on it. That said...I'll buy a Norinco any time I get the chance if the price is right, and I'm sure that it's not a "hot" item. ;)

[SargeMO]

Ah! Gotcha...

The chamber face damage happens because, although the Chinese did a bang-up job of replicating the Ithaca-cloned "Model of the 1911A1" pistols,
the one thing they either didn't notice...didn't consider as important...or flat
didn't care about, was the slight angle (Undercut toward the bottom) on the chamber face that compensates for the barrel tilt as it goes into lockup.
Ironically, the tighter the barrel fit, the more pronounced the damage, up to the point that the required clearance was obtained...or the owner noticed that it was getting badly beaten up and sought the aid of a smith...who usually refit another barrel. No sense in trying to establish the angle, since once the hard chrome plating was breached, it would likely start to peel off.

This lack of clearance angle is the sole reason that only rarely do the barrels have the required 32nd inch gap...and the biggest majority sit flush with the feed ramp.

I like the Norinco 1911s a lot...rough though they be...but any that I buy I tend to accept going into it that there's at least a 10% chance that I'll be doin' a little surgery on it. That said...I'll buy a Norinco any time I get the chance if the price is right, and I'm sure that it's not a "hot" item. ;)

Roger that.

I considered trying to undercut the chamber face, but like you noted, the peeneing was deep. It did teach me a lesson, though. When I plugged the new barrel into the A/O GI I have written so much about here, I swapped the link to as near GI as I had on hand (.280) and mated the barrel/frame per Kuhnhausen. Figured it'd just save trouble in the long run, and enhance the gun's already excellent reliability with JHP's. Today it fired about 80 more rounds of WW 230 JHP's in qualification, with nary a bobble. That brings it near 800 rounds total; HP's SWC's & ball... running like a sewing machine along the way.

It pays to follow the original specs.

[1911Tuner]

Sarge noted:

>It pays to follow the original specs.<
***************************

Yessir! Now, if we could just get that across to the manufacturers... :D

The only thing that I can figure is that the Chinese didn't understand the tilting barrel and how it functioned. They may have assumed that it locked up parallel and tilted when it linked down, instead of vice-versa.

[John]

The only thing that I can figure is that the Chinese didn't understand the tilting barrel and how it functioned. They may have assumed that it locked up parallel and tilted when it linked down, instead of vice-versa.

Now, Grasshoper assumes the proper position for the ignorant student and asks:

So Teacher, what you mean by the above quote, is that the 1911 barrel is in reality tilted down (barrel muzzle lower than the rear end), when it is locked in the slide, and parallel to the slide, when it is unlocked and linked down?

This has never occured to me all those years! Good Lord, I learn something new every day!

Also, Johnny, can you please post a picture of which angle you are talking about? I am not sure I understand. Tnx

[SargeMO]

Sarge noted:

>It pays to follow the original specs.<
***************************

Yessir! Now, if we could just get that across to the manufacturers... :D

All we can do is try, Amigo.

The only thing that I can figure is that the Chinese didn't understand the tilting barrel and how it functioned. They may have assumed that it locked up parallel and tilted when it linked down, instead of vice-versa.
Must have been that danged "Chinese Arithmetic" :D

[1911Tuner]

Keep screamin' Sarge...I will. ;)

[Old Man River]

Now, Grasshoper assumes the proper position for the ignorant student and asks:

So Teacher, what you mean by the above quote, is that the 1911 barrel is in reality tilted down (barrel muzzle lower than the rear end), when it is locked in the slide, and parallel to the slide, when it is unlocked and linked down?

This has never occured to me all those years! Good Lord, I learn something new every day!

Also, Johnny, can you please post a picture of which angle you are talking about? I am not sure I understand. Tnx

John,
Can you make this info into a sticky thread somehow? This info shouldn't be lost.

[John]

LoL, as soon as Johnny clarifies my question, I will! :p

[Gitch-U]

John,
Can you make this info into a sticky thread somehow? This info shouldn't be lost.

See....Now aren't you glad I asked the question? :D

[1911Tuner]

LoL, as soon as Johnny clarifies my question, I will! :p

John...Yep. The barrel is tilted UP at the rear and down at the muzzle Put the gun in battery and look at the side of the gun to see how the end of the muzzle
sits in relation to the front edge of the bushing. See how more of the muzzle protrudes at the top than at the bottom? ;)

It's the little things that getcha.

The angled rear face of the chamber is too small to see in a photograph. It's only about one or two degrees. If you hold the
barrel up and look at the side of the chamber face...imagine a straightedge sitting at 90 degrees to the bore axis...and then angle the bottom toward the muzzle. The bottom of the chamber face...the ramp/throat area...is further forward than the top.
This compensates for the tilt into battery and allows the chamber face to sit square with the breechface.

Actually...parallel in full linkdown isn't exactly accurate. Most guns drop a little below parallel, but at the point that the barrel lugs are just disengaged and don't yet have clearance for the slide to pass over...it's just about dead parallel.

[Gitch-U]

Okay...In light of all this new information, I need to pose "the million dollar question" to Y'all:

If I have the opportunity to purchase a Norinco 1911A1 in 95% to 98% condition, should I?.....or should I stick to the original plan of buying a SA GI or A/O and build off of that base? :confused:

thanks!

mg

[SargeMO]

Tuner's call on that one... I have built on Springfield and A/O, but never a Norinco.

[John]

I would ot compare an AO with either a SA or a Norinco. Although newer AO may be better than those of the before-Kahr era, I am just not sure about them.

Since you live in US, a Nork is a rarity, so I would get the Nork first. You can get a Springfield whenever you feel like it.

[1911Tuner]

Okay...In light of all this new information, I need to pose "the million dollar question" to Y'all:

If I have the opportunity to purchase a Norinco 1911A1 in 95% to 98% condition, should I?.....or should I stick to the original plan of buying a SA GI or A/O and build off of that base? :confused:

thanks!

mg

The Norinco is a very good choice. Be aware that there are a few that need
adjustment in the vertical specs in ordr to get a really good barrel fit...whch includes swaging the frame rails, installing a hard-fit barrel, and other tasks in order to bring'em into line. This makes the Norinco more of a pistolsmith task
than the Springfield would be. Of course, you may get one that's good to go.
Three out of five that I bought were. The other two needed a few hours of attention before I was satisfied with'em.

The Springfields usually don't, and will often provide 90%+ vertical lug engagement with a Kart Easy-Fit barrel...and just adjusting the hood
usually brings the first lug into play, while the Norincos often require
facing one of the other lugs to make that happen. Provides at least two equalized lugs...which is good...but more tedious to obtain, and not a job for the inexperienced without hands-on instruction.

Other than those possible concerns with the Norinco, either one will do nicely.

I'd leave the AO alone....

[KCboy]

would it be fair to say that the problems you are experiencing with the norinco is all gone now since it been almost 10years since the US got a norinco, possibly norinco has cleaned up its act on those said issues in this thread??? :)

[mismo]

would it be fair to say that the problems you are experiencing with the norinco is all gone now since it been almost 10years since the US got a norinco, possibly norinco has cleaned up its act on those said issues in this thread??? :)

I really think so. I cant hear anything wrong with norinco and most gunstore recommends norinco than our own products(armscor,sam,ria). When I bought my armscor they keep on convincing me that norinco is really tough but because of being a filipino and the armscor company is just few rides away I took armscor.I took armscor instead of norcs although the price of norc1911 .45 is lower than the armscor1911 9mm( i bought armscor 9mm). But Im planning also to take one norinco 1911 9mm this july 2006 gun show. god bless

[Ric4509]

I really think so. I cant hear anything wrong with norinco and most gunstore recommends norinco than our own products(armscor,sam,ria). When I bought my armscor they keep on convincing me that norinco is really tough but because of being a filipino and the armscor company is just few rides away I took armscor.I took armscor instead of norcs although the price of norc1911 .45 is lower than the armscor1911 9mm( i bought armscor 9mm). But Im planning also to take one norinco 1911 9mm this july 2006 gun show. god bless

Isn't that interesting!! Locally made 1911s more expensive than an import, and Norinco at that. Norinco 1911 is a very good auto pistol and a very good platform for customization. I have a full size and have slightly customized it. I refinished the entire pistol with a Brownells Gun Kote. Fired 200 rds of 230 gr CCI Blazers fmj yesterday and as expected functioned flawlessly. You should get one.

[gator]

You mean like this one.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6ce33b3127cce8de2250895ff00000016108AYuXLFyzcNd

Norinco come in nickle? I cant figure out what this finish is. I wont to make it black.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6ce33b3127cce8de2259b145c00000016108AYuXLFyzcNd

Just too shinny for me but for $300 out the door! Hay I can live with it.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6ce33b3127cce8de23b5795af00000016108AYuXLFyzcNd
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6ce33b3127cce8de22418d57700000016108AYuXLFyzcNd

I havent looked at the other side but will soon just to check it out.

[robertbank]

To bad you folks south of the 49th can't get the new Norincos. Aside from poor sights and triggers the guns we get now function flawlessly, or at least the ones I have, are and do.

If you get a used Nork in the States do as Tuner suggested and have the barrel linkage checked along with the slide barrel lock-up. If you go for a custom job then you have a great platform to start with. New Sights, trigger group, tighter bushing and beavertail would be on my first list then go to dehorning, re-bluing and a little checkering here and there and you will have a gun that shoots with the best of them. I had my ful custom Nork out today and shot a 4" group two handed at 25 yards with a body and a set of eyes that have seen better days. In the hands of a couple of the ERT members of the RCMP the gun shoots 1 1/2" groups off hand with ease.

OR you can leave as is and have a great shooter in a mil-spec iteration that likely will function reliably with any kind of ammo you throw into her.

If I were you and was going to spend the money to customize a basic gun I would look at a Para SSP or a Springfield loaded. I suspect by the time you are done playing with a basic gun you will be over the price of one of the Production guns that may be more valuable to you but, like a hot rod, not near as much to anyone else. Today some of the production guns come well equiped and for less money than what it takes to customize a basic 1911.


Take Care Eh

Bob

[Ric4509]

Take Bob's word for it. You'll be spending less if you buy a Para SSP/Loaded Springfield 1911A1 - e.g. PX9109L.

[painbringer]

To bad you folks south of the 49th can't get the new Norincos. Aside from poor sights and triggers the guns we get now function flawlessly, or at least the ones I have, are and do.

If you get a used Nork in the States do as Tuner suggested and have the barrel linkage checked along with the slide barrel lock-up. If you go for a custom job then you have a great platform to start with. New Sights, trigger group, tighter bushing and beavertail would be on my first list then go to dehorning, re-bluing and a little checkering here and there and you will have a gun that shoots with the best of them. I had my ful custom Nork out today and shot a 4" group two handed at 25 yards with a body and a set of eyes that have seen better days. In the hands of a couple of the ERT members of the RCMP the gun shoots 1 1/2" groups off hand with ease.

OR you can leave as is and have a great shooter in a mil-spec iteration that likely will function reliably with any kind of ammo you throw into her.

If I were you and was going to spend the money to customize a basic gun I would look at a Para SSP or a Springfield loaded. I suspect by the time you are done playing with a basic gun you will be over the price of one of the Production guns that may be more valuable to you but, like a hot rod, not near as much to anyone else. Today some of the production guns come well equiped and for less money than what it takes to customize a basic 1911.


Take Care Eh

Bob

sup Bob its me again lol

I understand what u mean about the new sight but can u explain to me the new trigger group, tighter bushings and the beavertail????? Do the last three add to the accuracy of the gun or just for looks????? :geek:

[robertbank]

Well a decent trigger job will add to accuracy as it will aid in your shooting. The Beavertail will spread the recoil over the hand more than the issue arrangement and depending on the Beavertail you buy will raise the grip bringing the bore axis lower which aids in follow up shots as the gun has less tendancy to rise as the recoil is directed straight back along your arm. As to the hammer and sear, looks and may provide a better trigger pull. Just observations I have made when I had mine done.

The gun really only needs better sights and a trigger job. I have long fingers so I went with a long trigger made by Dlask for my A1. It really comes down to how much you want to spend and your own likes and dislikes.

Take Care

Bob

[Roland]

Hmm, does anyone know if these newer 1911 norincos (like the ones coming into Canada) have fixed the issues mentioned earlier in the thread? As soon as Marstar gets that very, very very delayed shipment of 1911's and other goodies I will order one.

[robertbank]

It has been over 10 years since 1911 Norks were imported into the US. I have purchased four Norinco 1911's and all have been well made Combat 1911's. Yes they bave less than steller sights and ther triggers can always use some touoching up but they are shooters.

I would buy a new Nork A1 over any basic retro gun being made by Colt in the US or Springfield in Brazil paricularily when they can be had for $325Cdn.

We get a pretty nice 9MM 1911 but the .45acp models we get are your basic mil-spec gun both in A1 and Commander size.

Take Care

Bob

[teninx]

I've owned two norc's,the lastest bought for $400 nib at a gunshow.I had some les baer part left over from another project.I put LB.sear,spur hammer and a easyfit Kart barrel.The trigger pull was awesome and very accurate,all said and done it's one my favorite 1911s ever.I am not a pistolsmith in anyway,shape or form,the parts just fell together right.The norcs are a very solid platform to build from.

Regards,Don

[Ric4509]

I had her for sale at one point. I'm glad the would be buyer backed off and changed his mind. Now she's a keeper, still unfired. I have 2 more Norinco 1911s that are my range guns once in a while.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b227/Ric4509/NorincoNIB7-25-07003.jpg

[Roland]

Since I now have a norinco. Could someone tell me how to diagnose this problem to see if mine have it, what tools will I need?