Help in ID

[joehughes]

Please help me ID This .45. I had a Colt Combat Commander that my Dad gave me when I was in the Corp back in the early 90's. Later on he needed money and wanted to trade me for this one. He said he couldn't get what he needed out of it. Very vague about the whole thing.

I really loved my Combat Commander.

Anyway, long story short, he passed away last month and I was going through his old photos and there were many gun photos, all poloroids. Included was a picture of this .45. on the back he had written what the estimated value and that it was a Colt North American model.

I have done quite a bit of lurking and reading the last few days and I have not come across a Colt North American anywhere. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist just means that I haven't found any evidence that there ever was one.

As there are no marking on the outside of this .45 I have no way of knowing (Without Help) what the model of this one is.

There are some markings on the inside of the frame, under the slide. My camera is not good enough to get a clear picture of them.

Here are a couple pictures of the whole package.
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/8422/p10100154jh.jpg
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/4596/p10100144ud.jpg

Any help would be appreciated.

[Dr. Dickie]

Please help me ID This .45. As there are no marking on the outside of this .45 I have no way of knowing (Without Help) what the model of this one is.

There are some markings on the inside of the frame, under the slide. My camera is not good enough to get a clear picture of them.

Here are a couple pictures of the whole package.
Any help would be appreciated.

No serial #. Yikes :scared:
Looks like someone polished and chromed all the info away.
If there really are no numbers, contact ATF, and get some, else you risk jail time (or at least confiscation of the weapon).
It looks like a 1911 (not a 1911A1). The North American part tugs at my memory, but nothing is coming. Other, wiser, folks will likely know if it is something.

[191145]

Yep, somebody polished and chromed a M1911. I think your Dad was being vague because he knew the gun was illegal after the 'U S Government Property' and serial number were polished off - he knew he couldn't sell it on the open market, and didn't want it to fall into criminal hands. This was a fairly common practice in the late '40s and '50s when guys were afraid of being charged with theft for having G.I. guns. By now, so many of them have been surplused-out by the government that no one need have that concern anymore. I think the advice to apply for a serial number is good, because you always want to keep 'family' guns, and it would be good to make it legal for future generations. Just say the number was polished off during refinishing many years ago and was lost.

[Hawkmoon]

YIKES!

I didn't even notice the lack of a serial number. To reinforce what Dr. Dickie and Tuner said, contact the BATFE immediately. Possession of a firearm without a serial number is a federal felony, and the way the laws are written, it is automatically presumed under the law that the person who has the gun is the person who removed the serial number.

The BATFE knows that the numbers were removed from a lot of these old GI pistols. They have a procedure to issue a replacement serial number, which you can have stamped or engraved on the frame by a gunsmith.

[Doran]

North American mfg pistols didn't have a serial no, per se. There were assy numbers at several locations, if your pistol indeed started out as a NA. You might chk under the grip for a number. One thing I notice is a loop on the MSH which was not used on NA pistols.

[joehughes]

There are a couple of makings in the frame area.

In the pit area toward the front under the barrel and spring is a "7". Also near that is a "1".

On the top of the frame under the slide on the ejection port side is what looks like a square .

At the rear there looks to be an "H" above, a "G" below and a "I" to the right on the flat of the frame where the hammer strikes the Firing Pin.

G: Located on top of frame by disconnecter indicates gun was made to fill a Government contract. Stamped before the finish is applied.
H or H: Provisional acceptance mark. Located on top of frame by disconnecter indicates gun inspected by Ordinance Inspector. Stamped before finish applied. Francis L. Hosmer used this stamp on Colts 1911s and M1917 revolvers from 1911 to 1919. Also found on barrels and slides.

In this picture (Not my 1911 but an Example) it has the same "H" and "G". But where the "S" is in this picture I have an "I".

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/4674/1918topframe25sx.jpg

On my M1911, the barrel is also marked, but with the "HS"

The above information I located at the following site:
http://coolgunsite.com/pistols/Frame%20and%20Slide%20Markings.htm

[joehughes]

North American mfg pistols didn't have a serial no, per se. There were assy numbers at several locations, if your pistol indeed started out as a NA. You might chk under the grip for a number. One thing I notice is a loop on the MSH which was not used on NA pistols.

There are no numbers or markings under the grips. Rules out NA Mfg., right?. By my previous post best I can tell it was mfged as a Gov Model and somewhere between 1911 and 1919.

So far that is all I can ascertain.

[Doran]

I believe your frame is Colt mfg if marked as the picture. Your barrel is High Standard if the HS is marked on the side of the barrel lug.

[RandyColt]

Those markings are typical 1911 Colt markings used during the time period you state. See Clausen's book.

The North American pistols are very rare. Were never actually put into production. I believe there were way less than 100 proto types produced. I saw one recently in rough shape that was priced at us$25,000. There are some floating around that are questionable as to their authenticity.

[joehughes]

So, basically, I have a Gov Issue 1911 that was produce between 1911 and 1919 by Colt.

The barrel has been replaced.

The whole thing was then buffed and chromed, and other than heirloom value it is worth about as much as any other basic 1911 for insurance purposes.

Sound about right?

[191145]

"The barrel has been replaced"
No. That was the sub-contractor that furnished the barrel to Colt. It could be either original or an exact replacement.
"worth about as much as any other basic 1911 for insurance purposes."
Probably much less.

[joehughes]

Thank you everyone for your help.

It is pretty and shoots well. I still wish I had my Combat Commander back. Gues I will shart shopping for another one.

Thanks again.

[Johnny Peppers]

Colt made all their own barrels. High Standard, HS, furnished barrels to Remington Rand, Ithaca, and Union Switch & Signal.