Stove Pipe Problems-Please Help!!!

[Rocket 6R]

I received this pistol from a deceased relative about a month ago. Today was the first time I had an opportunity to shoot it. Before shooting it I took it to a well known 1911smith in Arizona. He checked it out and said it should be fine. He had checked for things like extractor tension and so on. I fired 50 rounds of Winchester "white box" ball ammo. I had two stove pipe failures and no other problems of any kind. I fired the pistol in a modified Weaver-Stance with two hands (no limp wristing here).

Facts about the pistol:

1. Completely cleaned prior to firing and used grease on the appropriate parts of the pistol.

2. New Wolff 18.5 pound recoil spring.

3. Colt 7 round mags with 11 pound Wolf springs installed.

4. Again, the gunsmith checked the pistol for things like extractor tension and so did I.

Please, can anyone tell me what is wrong with the pistol or what I should do to correct it?

Thanks, Rocket 6R

[SMMAssociates]

Rocket:

I'm no expert, although I did drive by a Holiday Inn Express twice last week....

First question: What's the model of the gun. I'm guessing a GM by the spring weight. (5" 1911 or 1991.)

Second question: "Where in the magazine sequence did those stovepipes occur?" First round, last round, etc.

Have you tried other magazines? Was this confined to just one magazine or all of them?

With that, I'll defer to the guys who actually know what they're talking about :D , but the gun sounds OK. A couple of "issues" with WWB wouldn't scare me off, particularly if it was a NIB gun. 'Course we don't know (well, maybe you do?) what the gun's history is either.

Regards,

[Rocket 6R]

The pistol is a 1956 (date of manufacture) Colt Government Model (pre-70). I have only two mags and I did not pay attention to what mag was in the pistol. The mags are "Colt 45 Auto" with an "M" on the upper right corner on the base. I believe these are made by Metalform for Colt. I have inspected the mag feed lips and I can't see anything that looks out of the ordinary.

I was reading some of 1911Tuner's stuff and I followed his directions to test the extractor. The extractor has seemed to pass the test. The extractor has a .032-.033 depth on the hook. I placed a live round on the breach face/under extractor and the round was a little limp. I then turned the slide in every direction and it stayed on.

I have a concealed permit for my state and would like to carry this pistol. However, I will not do so until I can resolve its lack of reliability.

Thanks, Rocket 6R

[Hunter]

I might would try some quality ammunition first and rule out that. I am assuming the stove pipe you are referring to is upon ejection. When placing a round in the extractor it should be help slightly snug to the breehface otherwise the case can roll out of the way of the ejector. Is the ejector in good shape? Is it snug to the frame? If it continues to stove pipe I might would add a small amount of extractor tension and be sure the ejector is good to go.

[Rocket 6R]

Yep, the extractor is snug to the frame. I even checked for exctractor "clocking" and it doesn't have it. Meaning, the extractor does not roll side to side when chambering rounds. DOES ANYONE THINK IT COULD BE THE RECOIL SPRING WEIGHT? SHOULD I GO WITH A STANDARD WOLFF 16 POUND SPRING VS. THE 18.5 POUNDER I HAVE IN THERE NOW?

I didn't realize that the Winchester "white box" was bad ammo!

Thanks, Rocket 6R

[SMMAssociates]

Rocket:

Good questions now, and good answers (thanks Hunter!)....

I used to be a corporate Data Processing Manager. A VP once sent me the total page of a 120 page report marked "this is wrong!" Devil of a time explaining to him that he had to be a little more specific :nono: . (We also had a Plant Manager who assumed that because the computer existed, it knew.)

But I digress....

WWB's considered "second class".... Fine for the range, though. I don't use it - my club range demands lead only, so I'm using some "you bought what!?" reloads. No real problems with any of these, but an occasional oops is to be expected. (We go outside and fire "factory" JHP's for "confidence" testing.)

So, that's one test - some non-reload Factory ammo.... Graduate to the stuff you plan to carry eventually, but it's OK to pop off a few hundred of the less expensive spread to start with. That eliminates any variables in the reloading process. ("Factory" non-reloaded is going to be a bit more consistent. I wouldn't bet the wife & kiddies on it, but that may help diagnose the problem.)

If you've got another spring, that might be worth a test if the ammunition doesn't seem to be the problem. Yours may be a little bit heavy, but my experience is with 4.25" and 4" guns, where that's actually a little light.... I think you'd actually see more unreliability if it's the spring. My (now retired) Commander liked an 18# "variable" spring before it blew. Nothing else would feed reliably regardless of magazine and ammunition issues. (It popped two barrels - nothing spring-related.)

Finally, Tuner's probably forgotten more about these things than the rest of us will learn. Just watch what you say about Collies....

Magazines.... Forgot.... You still might want to try another brand if you've got access to 'em. Try the ammo swap first....

And another.... GM's may be a little itchy with anything but round-nose FMJ.... You may need a smith to tune things up a bit to handle JHP's or other "social" loads. Tackle that after solving the rest of the problems, although it still might turn out that a little fluff & buff would be advisable. Let your smith decide that. I don't think we're at that point with this yet.

Regards,

[Hunter]

Like Stu said WWB is not bad ammo just not top quality. I would not think the recoil spring was the main culprit but I would switch to the 16 pound spring that the pistol was designed for. When the brass is ejected does it seem constant of very scattered. If the extractor is not clocking the brass should be relatively uniform in ejecting. Have you cleaned the extractor channel well? Grit can cause the extractor not to flex as it should as the hook slips over the case rim.

[1911Tuner]

Use a 16-pound spring and if there's a shock buffer in the recoil system, take it out. Check to see if the disconnect is dragging on the slide by hand-cycling the slide normally...then with the trigger pulled and held full rearward to see if there's any difference or drag.

The .032 inch extractor hook depth is a minimum dimension. Increase the tension a bit more and see how it does.

The magazine doesn't have anything to do with failure to extract/eject unless your extractor is clocking and causing last-round failures to eject...and the magazine follower is round-topped...then it'll mask the problem, but doesn't correct it...although the upcoming round in the magazine does bump the case as it extracts, and helps it out of the port...but this only happens if an extended ejector isn't in the gun.

Beddy-bye time!

[SMMAssociates]

Hunter:

I assume Rocket's smith pulled that gun apart, but I have a story....

I've owned a 1911 for about four years, but only really got serious about shooting them about 18 months ago. That Commander I mentioned.... It developed some extraction problems - probably Wolf ammo screwed up the extractor - and I gave it to a local gunsmith.

He said he'd tuned it up, and had fired it.

I think I got about six rounds through it when it started doing goofy things.

Feeding and extracting problems, strange hang-ups, and finding the firing pin stop in my shirt pocket....

(Guess that's when I decided I'd better start learning about these things, although I've got a ways to go.)

Back at home, I took the slide apart (straight GI innards, ordinary steel Combat Commander, circa 1975 I suppose - I inherited it from a friend).

There were filings in the firing pin tube that were restricting the pin's movement - changing the timing. (You guys realize that nothing really is holding the stop in place except a little friction during part of the firing cycle.)

There were also filings in the extractor channel.... That didn't help the thing work at all.

I ended up using pipe cleaners and Q-Tips to clean all that, and replaced the firing pin spring too. Worked fine for quite a while therafter until something else popped up.)

Guess the point is that crud can get in there, although if it really was cleaned.... In my case, I bought an S&W CS45 second-hand that a dealer friend claimed he'd used as a carry piece. There were dust bunnies in there big enough to raise, and mummified grease all over the place. His in-house smith would have had a fit if he'd seen the gun, but apparently he hadn't.

(When that guy cleans a gun, you have to strip it and re-lubricate it. His idea of "lubrication" involves having the grease in the same room as the gun.... Well, not exactly, but we have our arguments about it :p .)

Rocket: Just happened to think, if you're still awake after all my prattle.... Was that gun fired much before you got it? A NIB GM should be about as good as it gets for FMJ's once cleaned and lubricated, although a thousand rounds or so might be an advantage. I wouldn't lose much sleep over two failures of WWB in the first few hundred rounds. It'd bother me a little during the last few hundred....

Regards,

[Hunter]

Stu the story you told is the same reason I wanted to know how to fix my own firearms. I am not a gunsmith but I have taken a few gunsmithing courses in the Marines and since I got out. I can do most all general repairs and maintenance on my firearms. I have been lucky and not had anything come up that I could not figure out especially since I joined this forum. I try to keep on hand a few shop manuals and a couple old text books. Like I said I am no gunsmith but if I can't figure it out I know Tuner can.

[SMMAssociates]

Hunter:

I've got a good local gunsmith (now) if I need help, and, of course, depend on Tuner too.

But, like you, I prefer to do it myself when I can.

I did QC and drafting at the former day job before I got involved with computers, and got into Ham Radio in the late 50's. All of that had me at least partially trained in the sort of mechanical skills needed to sort out the insides of a gun. 'Course, I've also built a few computers.... (And one 8080 motherboard I never quite finished.)

About the only thing I've thus far refused to do is take down my Para LDA.... There are things in there that aren't meant for mortal men.... (The turn off is the point in the re-assembly instructions that include something like "wiggle it around a bit until it fits right....")

I have been very lucky to have Tuner around, too! And the local guy I now work with usually will tell me how to do something if I ask nice. He's retired from a local PD, and works the counter at my favorite gun shop part time. Smithing is really more of a hobby for him now. Which means that "I'll get to it after hunting season" is a bit of a problem sometimes. He only gets 'em now when I really can't sort it out.

Another point: Browning's design was intended to be a throwaway, serviceable by a cook detailed as a truck driver. The basic tricks of "be able to make it shoot" are downright trivial, especially if you've got a bunch of battlefield pickups on hand to salvage parts. More complex repairs (sights, plunger tube) seem to be rear-area stuff, but swapping a frame is so simple that it's barely relevant. Real "fitting" is more a function of later folks finding out that a little diddling here and there (rather than just swapping parts off the pile) made for a better gun.

My blown-up Commander (very long story) can still be fired with it's third barrel installed, but somewhere before 5000 rounds will pop yet another barrel. Good enough for a troop to take out in the field "today", but one to toss in the recycling pile as soon as it's practical.

Regards,

[Rocket 6R]

Wow! I went to bed and woke up to a lot of responses. Thanks guys. Looks like there are a lot of questions, I hope I answer them all.

The pistol: I received this pistol from my step-grandfather who just recently past away. He gave me this 1911 and an almost mint Underwood M1 Carbine. Anyway, the pistol has not been shot for about 30 years according to my step-father. However, when they did shoot the pistol they shot the hell out of it. The pistol is stock from head to toe except for the Wolff recoil spring and firing pin spring. Oh, my gunsmith (Nelson Ford and rated as a top 100 gunsmith by American Handgunner) did a throat job on the barrel.

The pistol's slide to frame fit is a bit loose. The barrel to slide fit is loose. I can press the chamber portion of the barrel into the slide about .01", I'm guessing on that measurement. I tried the disconnector test and it seems to drag on the slide. I don't have an extra Wolff spring or mags. I will need to order them.

This is my 6th 1911. I have not had one in about 5 years. When I was younger and less wise I sold, bought and traded guns. I have slowed down now and have not sold a gun in 3-4 years. I will keep this pistol forever as it is a family keep-sake. Anyway, I know how to clean a 1911, or I think I know how to. I sure cleaned a lot of weapons when I was a marine. The pistol, prior to firing, was cleaned from one end to the other. The extractor was taken out and cleaned with solvent and a tooth brush, no grime or grit left.

On a better note, when I was out on the range and managed to shoot a 4.7" group at 25 yards with the Winchester white box ammo (5 shot group). I could have done a little better if I had taken my time and if my eyes were better. I need a new eye exam as my last one was 3 years ago. The sights were a tad bit blurry to me when firing.

I prefer to fix my own problems rather than taking to any gunsmith as I may never learn if I don’t fix the problems myself. I appreciate any solutions/advice anyone may have.

Thanks, Rocket 6R