Officers won't feed any JHP from last round in magazine

[warmrain]

I have a NIB Colt Officers Enhanced Ultimate Stainless 1911. It is has no modifications of any kind, not a polished feed ramp (loathe to do what does not need to be done, it looks great).

The pistol has been 100% from day one using 230 gr. ball amm0 (Federal American Eagle). However in all my testing of JHP ammo it simply will not feed anything from the last position in the magazine.

The failure is a stove pipe. The round is nose up in the ejection port. The magazines I've used are the two original ones that came NIB with the pistol. Markings indicate they were manufactured by Metalform and the followers have the dimple. Wilson magazines seem to behave similarly (these are 7 round magazines), OK with ball, trouble feeding JHPs from the last round.

I've tried: HydraShok, GoldenSaber, GDHP and Corbon.

I have no idea where to go from here :( except to say that I've got some Federal Expanding FMJs on order to try.

Any suggestions?

P.S. The pistol is pictured under the Rollieflex icon.

[wichaka]

What you're saying is.........the unfired round is stovepiped? or just the case on the last round?

I would say check both the mags and the extractor. A stovepipe on a fired case is uaully an extractor problem.........the extractor is dropping the case.

If its a stovepiped unfired round........then the mag is the culprit, as its not handling the round properly.

Possibly a small combo of the two.

When was the last timem the mags were cleaned? The extractor is clean too?

[warmrain]

Thanks for the reply wichaka,

As hard as I tried to make things clear the first go at it, I still failed to make clear that the last JHP round in the standard Metalform (Colt) 6 round magazines (with a dimpled follower) will stovepipe while being fed into the chamber. It is oriented bullet up, unfired, caught between the barrel hood and the breech face.

The pistol is new and immaculately cleaned and properly lubed. Total round count through the pistol and magazines is about 300. The mags have never been cleaned since NIB.

I wonder, should I strip and clean these new magazines...? It is a NIB (unfired? hard to tell) from circa 1992. I wonder if a good magazine cleaning is in order... Perhaps they are dirty from storage or there is manufacturing residues left behind...

The pistol has been 100% on hard ball ammo though...!

[1911Tuner]

Search "Bolt-Over Base" failure to feed. The explanation is contained therein.
It's a magazine issue...No biggie.

Tip:

The standard 7-round dimpled follower and the standard-length Wolff 11-pound mag spring works in Officer's Model 6-round magazines. Of course, the magazine will only hold 6 rounds...but life's fulla little trade-offs.
You can have 6 rounds in a 6-round mag...or you can fire 6 from a 7-round mag with a surprise at the end. :D

[1911Tuner]

It sounds like a bolt over base FTF, but if it's a mag spring issue shouldn't it happen (on the last round) with ball or JHP ?

Does it look like the FTF pictured in this thread ? http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=9588

Hersh

Okay...Got the 6-round mag...Got the dimpled follower...Still a bolt-over-base misfeed. Either the mag spring is too weak to get the round up in time,
or the slide is outrunnin' the mag because of too much recoil spring...or the slide is short-cycling.

Prove it via two methods.

Load one round in the mag...pull the slide fully rearward, and release.

Now...load one in the mag...pull the slide back just far enough for the lower edge of the breechface to sit even with the middle of the extractor groove...release the slide...and watch the round go nose-up.

[wichaka]

Hmmmmm problem with a flat follower with a dimple?????? :scared:


wichaka is doin the pokin' now....... :dead_hors

[1911Tuner]

Hmmmmm problem with a flat follower with a dimple?????? :scared:


wichaka is doin the pokin' now....... :dead_hors


Aw shaddap...It's still gotta have enough spring. :D

[SMMAssociates]

I love it....

We got Wichaka and Tuner arguing....

:D

Had a really funny one with that little Kimber I bought a few months ago. "Compact Custom" - all steel, 4" over an "Officer's" slide. Internal Extractor, no Series II complications. No dimple on the mag followers either :) .

It started refusing to return all the way to battery (like the Series II guns can do).

I didn't think too much of it until I held the gun (empty) muzzle up, and the slide came back about a quarter-inch....

Turns out that they want a new spring at about 1000 rounds, and I'd just about hit that....

(I always thought that the spring was light, but.... :scared: )

Belive it or not, I had a spare spring. I bought a magazine spring from Wolff a while back and had noted that Kimber recommended a short interval. Figured that $3 worth of postage on a $3 spring was kind of silly, so I ordered a spring for the then-brand-new Kimber.

Regards,

[warmrain]

Johnny,

Yes, it looks exacly like the photo in:

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=9588

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c391/dream449/IMG_0340.jpg

I'm using the NIB Colt (Metalform) 6 round original (circa 1992) magazines that came with the pistol, not extended round magazines (e.g. CMC).

So even though the pistol feeds hard ball to the end of the magazine, you feel it could be the magazine springs that cause the JHP to fail?! That is good news!

So if I understand correctly I can order a couple Wolff 11 pound and still use them with the original Colt/Metalform dimpled follower?!

I'm standing by with the gunsprings site up and credit card in hand...

Thanks for the feedback. It is greatly appreciated!

[Mystro]

Wow - You guys are the best!

I'm experiencing something similar with my 10mm Eclipse CustomII. But onlt 500 rounds thru it! Maybe I'll still change out the spring.

I learn something new every time I visit!

Thanks for all your great knowledge!
Regards,
Mystro

[1911Tuner]

Nah...me and the Wichaka don't argue. We'uns is brothers by another mother. 'Course, we do disagree on those Wilson 47Ds that he carries, and I pray for him every day. :D

The bolt-over base feed is a magazine timing issue 99 times out of a hundred. The reason that it's not happening with ball is that most factory
hollowpoints these days are loaded to higher pressures and velocities than hardball. Faster bullet means faster slide goin' backward. Faster backward means more rebound and faster on the return trip. Faster on the RTB means that the magazine timing is more critical to get the round into position in time
to keep the slide from catchin' it ahead of the rear face of the rim.

This is most likely to happen on the last round, when the mag spring tension is at its minimum and likewise mimimum drag on the slide as it recoils...so there are two factors working against the last round. If this were short-cycle induced, it would occur on other rounds.

The dimple doesn't control mag timing. It only controls the last round's position in the magazine, and helps prevent its jumping the follower...which is a whole 'nother malfunction. The lack of magazine spring strength is the fly in the ointment here. There's a small chance that the mag feed lips have spread, and causing the bullet nose to sit a little higher in the tube...but that's only a contributing factor.

[wichaka]

Nope we don't argue........just a little fun pokin' now & then.......

Them thar springs, as you can see from the nose up round, have to be strong enough to control the rounds in the magazine and allow them to be fed off during the cycling properly...........and it takes the right amount of spring to do it, and do it well.

I see a lot of nice guns come across the bench.........they spend 2,000+ for a gun, but skimp on the mags.

If you take nothing else from this thread..........take this;

The magazine is a removeable part of the 1911 firing system.........treat it as such. You woudn't neglect cleaning your gun, don't neglect the mags either.

Be good, stay safe.........

[warmrain]

Johnny,

Wow, this last post put it all so plainly into my minds eye. You definately have the ability to verbalize a situation so others can visualize what's happening; it seems obvious now.

I especially appreciate the time you took to describe in such lucid detail how and why this can occur with only JHP and not ball ammo (something that truely baffeled me, entirely).

So, let me ask one more time so I don't make a silly mistake... This is a Colt Officers with the NIB Colt 6 round Officers magazines (made by metalform because of the stamp on the base plate). They have the dimpled follower...

So it seems I can just get a magazine spring (and use the existing follower)?

And is that spring an 11# spring for the Officers length magazine?

Thank you a thousand times my friend!

Best,

[1911Tuner]

warmrain axed:


So it seems I can just get a magazine spring (and use the existing follower)?

And is that spring an 11# spring for the Officers length magazine?
*********************

Yep and yep. The 6-round officer's model magazine uses the same spring and follower as the standard 7-round Commander/GM magazine. Ain't that too cool? ;)

[warmrain]

warmrain axed:


So it seems I can just get a magazine spring (and use the existing follower)?

And is that spring an 11# spring for the Officers length magazine?
*********************

Yep and yep. The 6-round officer's model magazine uses the same spring and follower as the standard 7-round Commander/GM magazine. Ain't that too cool? ;)
Cool, I'm off to www.brownells.com to get some springs. I wonder if the ones in my magazines are just weak from being in the magazine for 13+ years... :confused:

I'm sorry, in re-reading this entire thread for continuity I see I made you repeat yourself... :o

I truely appreciate the help. I'll let you know what happens.

[Hajah Momenem]

Outstanding THREAD! Very gracious of you ,1911Tuner,wichaka,and warmrain. Education is damn expensive;and yall are giving it away FREE!!! I am taking notes. My stock S80 Lightweight Officer's ACP has digested a variety of bullet shapes and loads in the 10 years I have owned it(Black Talons and HB diet mostly) ;but I have only recently begun to shoot on a semi-regular basis. I'm sure everyone on this forum shoots more than me;but I AIM to change that :)
I greatly respect and value not only the knowledge and experience of you Mentor/Moderators/shootists;but the wisdom and magic too! The unselfish sharing of your hard-earned treasures is truly priceless.
You guys think I should change my possibly misunderstood forum "name"? I was in a hurry...

[Hajah Momenem]

I wanted to add that my Officer's seems fairly loose and rattley compared to two other Colt 1911s I have owned. That might add to its good "reliability" record(?)///// Could one of you kind souls tell me how many different Colt "flattop-slided" .45ACP models have been produced? I am aware of the Officer's and GC;any others?///One other question I have is regarding the Kuhnhausen(sp?) books. Would someone like me with fairly modest (hand-tools)/ machinist skills benefit from the information therein?

[John]

Reading always benefits the reader. I still am trying to find a copy of the second volume.

Also, please do not hijack the threads. Hi-jacking means starting a new discussion (like the flattop issue) within an existing discussion. Start a new thread for it, unless Hajah's question can be answered in one post.

[SMMAssociates]

Hajah:

Going out on a limb, but being loose probably won't help accuracy, but it shouldn't hurt much else.

Kuhnhausen's books are well worth a read even if you're not a machinist, but IMHO don't plan on doing much serious machine work until you're really well versed in the 1911.

It seems like a good idea to buy both....

I had a full machine shop at my disposal at the former day job, but it dried up about a dozen years ago. They wouldn't let me play with the lathe, either, for some reason. I did some drafting in my early days before getting involved with computers, and can read (and make) engineering drawings. Interesting stuff in there, including some diagnostic information that pretty well confirmed why my Commander is now on the shelf. :(

Regards,

[SMMAssociates]

Reading always benefits the reader. I still am trying to find a copy of the second volume.

John:

Brownells has it.

Dunno what the postage to Greece would be, though....

Maybe send 'em a statue? One with arms? :D

Regards,

[warmrain]

OK, ordered a three pack of 11# springs and as long as I was there (and paying shipping) ordered a single (std. weight) recoil spring replacement (that comes with a new firing pin spring).

I am not planning on changing the latter any time soon, I just ordered them to have...

I am going to change only ONE thing at a time, and that will be the magazine springs first!

I will report back!

Thanks again everyone!

[warmrain]

I purchased the recommended items (and some others). I changed out the magazine springs (gee the new ones were a couple inches longer, gee the originals that had been stored for 14+ years were showing signs of rust) and went to the range. I had about 100 rounds of factory hardball and about 100 rounds of various well known JHP ammo.

First I verified proper operation on ball ammo: OK. Then I started to run the SD stuff... First magazine OK! Wow, this was a first... Second magazine was a stove pipe on the last round (unfired nose up)... Before sending too much more down range I started to think about what Johnny said about the timing involved in a (partial, in my case) classic bolt over failure. I ran a couple more magazines and found that the new 11# magazines springs had solved the problem about 50%.

Then I started thinking again about 'Tuner's lessons and remembering that when I first cleaned this NIB (from <1992) pistol the recoil spring left rust trails on the shop rags...

What it the recoil spring, too, was weak. If it was the slide would fly back quicker during use of SD ammo and start its forward travel sooner... I had the recoil spring with me (std. pressure) and so decided to change it there at the range.

A couple minutes later I was testing again. I had 65 rounds left of various JHP, some standard pressure, some +P; there was 165, 185 and 230 gr. rounds. All went downrange withoug a single problem.

Then back to hardball in the Colt and the "other" magazines (Wilson in this case) to be sure that the standard stuff was still working... Yes...

So the combination of new (11#) magazines springs and a new (std. weight, single coil) Wolff recoil spring worked what seemed like magic.

Now... I just happen to have this firing pin spring that came along for the ride with the new recoil spring... I have an idea that this is not that difficult to change, however this is a series 80 pistol...

Does one simply depress the firing pin safty plunger on the bottom of the slide, push the firing pin in, let drop the retainer plate and catch the pin and spring before they fly across the room?!

Will the extractor stay there? Is there a trick to reassembly with the Series 80 models (does the firing pin safety plunger need to be activated during reassemby?

Thanks all! This is really cool!

[1911Tuner]

Series 80 slide strip:

Stand the slide on the front end. Depress the plunger with a suitable tool...I use a thumbnail...and hold it while pushing the firing pin in just past its normal travel...and hold it while you release the plunger. The FP will stay forward unless there's a problem. Remove the FP stop.

Thumb over the rear of the slide to catch the FP, depress the plunger again and hold it. Pull the FP the rest of the way out.

Hold a thumb over the plunger and lever the extractor slightly backward. Unless it's caked up with fouling, the plunger and spring should pop out far enough to grab it with tweezers or needle-nose pliers. It may come completely out...so don't lose it. That spring is tiny and it'll bounce forever if it gets loose. (Ask me how I know)Lever the extractor the rest of the way out.

If all you need to do is change the FP spring, you can skip the plunger and extractor removal. The spring goes on one way. If it slips on easily, it's on backward.

Luck!

[warmrain]

Thanks Johnny,

I'll keep this for my records. For now I'm just changing the FP spring. :)

BTW, I know about those springs and how they bounce :o from having built up an AR-15 from parts...

[warmrain]

Johnny,
Any trick to re-assembly?

[SMMAssociates]

Johhny, Any trick to re-assembly?

Growing a third hand might help. Otherwise you should figure it out while taking it apart.

Tuner may have some specific suggestions, though. I use a $10-ish tool from Brownells for this. It's not great, but it's a help. ("Extractor Removing Tool" or some such - about 5" long steel rod thingie.)

If you want to make a tool, a piece of steel rod about 4" long with an ever so slightly cupped business end (to sort of hang onto the pin's end) ought to work well. I'm not sure if you need to cup it or not. The hammer strut could also be used, so I think you can see that it barely matters - any old pin that's about the size of the hole in the firing pin stop will work....

Regards,

[Dr. Dickie]

Johnny,
Any trick to re-assembly?

Re-assembly goes the other way.
Put in the extractor, then put the spring and plunger tube from the Series 80 safety system in. The extractor has to be just a little less than fully flush with the back for the plunger to go in and be pushed down--you can take a small wooden dowle to just touch the end of the extractor where it comes out on the breech face to get it back from flush. You have to get a feel for it here, when the extractor is just back a little bit, the plunger will drop into place. When the plunger does go in all the way you have to push it down with a wooden dowle or small drift, then push the extractor in until it is flush with the back of the slide. Now let go of the punger, it will pop up but not come out. This will hold the extractor in and the Series 80 safety plunger. Check the extractor and make sure it is not twisted in there. The back should be flush with the back of the slide (this is critical later).
For the firing pin, push the plunger down, and hold. Insert the firing pin and push it down past where the stop plate will be (again wooden dowle or small drift). Now let the plunger up, that will lock the firing pin in place. Slide the stop in (this is where the extractor alignment is critical--if it is twisted, you got problems). Once the stop is up in place, push the Series 80 plunger tube again, and the firing pin will pop out into place.

[SMMAssociates]

Dr. DIckie, Warmrain:

Unless you've got a fairly tight firing pin stop (Tuner likes 'em that way), I find that test-fitting the stop after installing the extractor is real helpful in making sure that I've placed and aligned the extractor properly.

Not really necessary, but it saves some cussing when you get to the last couple steps.

Regards,

[warmrain]

Thanks everyone. I know it may have sounded like a simple thing to ask, but it is my first time at this and this particular pistol (pictured behind the camera icon) is not a training aid sort of 1911... ;)

The operation went very well. The FP stop is very tight and had to be gently drifted out with a brass drift and a plastic mallet. The old FP spring was distorted because of it's difficult removal from the FP (had to pull and twist liek crazy). There was no mark visible on the FP where the spring was seated.

Thanks for the hint about spring orientation (this is the Wolff spring that came with the recoil spring), there is a definate difference in the diameter from end to end (unlike the Colt spring).

Everything went together well. I discovered during disassembly that the the saftey plunger needed to be presssed to get the spring past.

It is convenient that the plunger holds the FP because I needed to drift the FP stop back into place.

The new FP spring was longer than the one I removed and it is notably stronger (when I press the FP with a drift).

Thanks everyone, I had not responded earlier due to the fact that once again I got unsubscribed from the thread... :confused:

[warmrain]

Test fired again and this pistol has never run better!

[John]

Another happy customer! LoRL

[1911Tuner]

Another happy customer! LoRL

You have learned well, Grasshopper. ;)