I screwed up and need help

[jumpseater]

I was at the range shooting my duty weapon, an HK USP 40 S&W. I had the opportunity to fire a S&W 1911. It was great. Two things suprised me. The recoil was smother, not as snappy as the .40. And I was more accurate at 25 yards than with my duty weapon.

So it looks like shooting it was around a $1,000 mistake. I have to own one. The S&W was nice but I like the history behind the Colt. After some reaserch what I think I'm going to go after is a 70 series government.
I want a gun to carry camping, fishing, in the car,etc. Concealment (size is not an issue ). It will not be just a range gun.

I will shoot it until something breaks, and then probably have gunsmith work it over. It seems like the 70 series is a better base than the 80 for a platform to build on. Mainly because of the safety.

So finaly some questions.

1. Am I way off in left field with my thinking?
2. Blued or stainless? I don't like the idea of the blueing wearing off.
3. Can anyone compare the Colt to the S&W?
4. Has anyone bought a gun of the guns america web site?

thank You

[Hawkmoon]

The S&W uses the older Swartz firing pin safety system that Colt abandoned after WW2. It also uses an external extractor. They do not appear to have had as many problems with the external extractor as Kimber did, but it's a proprietary part. Get any of the 1911s that use the traditional internal extractor, and in the event of a failure you can pick up a replacement just about anywhere.

Guns America is only a listing service, so it doesn't really matter if someone has bought a gun from there, because they don't control what the vendors who list there do. I bought a Colt Commander from one of their listers last year. When it arrived at my FFL, it appeared to be every bit as nice as it had been described. Only problem was -- it wouldn't shoot. Every single shot failed the extract, so I had myself a nice single shot 1911. There were a few exchanges with the seller, until he finally agreed to refund me $50 toward having the extractor replaced. Turns out someone had installed a .45 extractor in the 9mm slide. Based on the seller's argumentative attitude, I have a gut feeling that he's the culprit, but I want to make clear that I have absolutely no proof of that. And in the end I did get back enough to just about cover my costs in getting it corrected, so I wasn't cheated ... only aggravated.

I know two of the shops that list on Guns America. A friend is a collector, and he has taken me to both of them, he has bought guns from them (not through Guns America, of course, since he's local), and he feels both shops are reputable. But that's only two out of however many hundreds or thousands of shops and non-FFLs who list there.

[WillyBoy]

JS,
Your thinking is right on. HK makes a lot of great handguns and i have owned most of their models (still have a P7) and enjoyed each of them, buit there is no firearm more fun to shoot IMO than a good operating 1911.

Stainless for rust prevention (still have to keep it clean) and if you like the look. I personally like the look of well worn blueing on a 1911....it adds character and lets you know it was used and not shelved.

If you are a purist, then only a Colt will do. I carry a Kimber now because it is the one I am most comfortable with, but own a couple of old 70 series commanders that my father and uncle carried as officers in the US Army. i don't think you will have any probs with the Smith 1911, but it is really personal choice and price comparison.

I have purchased several firearms (7, I think) off the GA website. Most recently . about 2 months ago, another Kimber. I have had nothing but good experiences from buying there and a reputable seller will give you references and their FFL # which you can verify on the ATF website to be sure they are a legitimate dealer. Just get your references and the FFL # and you should be good to go.

Good Luck.

[Abbie Normal]

Response to questions:

1. I don't think so. I'm having a Series 70 Government worked for everyday carry. Wilson Drop-in Beavertail, Brown Hardcore hammer, and 4# trigger job/inspection.

2. I prefer blue, but it is more maintenance.

3. Never owned/shot a S&W 1911.

4. No.

[Dr. Dickie]

I was at the range shooting my duty weapon, an HK USP 40 S&W. I had the opportunity to fire a S&W 1911. It was great. Two things suprised me. The recoil was smother, not as snappy as the .40. And I was more accurate at 25 yards than with my duty weapon.

So it looks like shooting it was around a $1,000 mistake. I have to own one. The S&W was nice but I like the history behind the Colt. After some reaserch what I think I'm going to go after is a 70 series government.
I want a gun to carry camping, fishing, in the car,etc. Concealment (size is not an issue ). It will not be just a range gun.

I will shoot it until something breaks, and then probably have gunsmith work it over. It seems like the 70 series is a better base than the 80 for a platform to build on. Mainly because of the safety.

So finaly some questions.

1. Am I way off in left field with my thinking?
2. Blued or stainless? I don't like the idea of the blueing wearing off.
3. Can anyone compare the Colt to the S&W?
4. Has anyone bought a gun of the guns america web site?

thank You

1) The Series 70 is a fine weapon. Your thinking is fine.
2) I have a blued Series 70 that showed some wear after an IDPA competition and, of course, all the practice in and out of a tight holster. I am now looking for a SS combat commmander (Series 70).
3) Don't have a SW, but I know some folks that have them and love them.
I did have a bad experience with an old (early 80's) SW style of 1911. Now know this, it was not a SW 1911 (they were not making them then) only similar to a 1911. The problem was likely the external extractor (or so I am learning around here), but I do think that was simply a fluke. If you love the SW, they make a fine weapon and I am sure you will love it.
4. Nope.
HTH
P.S. 1911 addiction is a VERY costly. If you ever want to go cold turkey, I'll them off your hands :D . Hey, I'm hopelessly addicted.

[Hawkmoon]

When looking at ads on Guns America, be sure to read EVERYTHING the seller writes. Most offer a 3-day inspection period ... but not all. Unless you are an FFL, the gun has to be shipped to your receiving FFL. The 3-day inspection period begins when your FFL receives the package, not whenever you get around to heading over there to check it out. So be sure to coordinate with your FFL.

Also, while most of the sellers on Guns America accept Visa and MasterCard, their policies differ. Very few sell at the same price for cash or credit card, but a few do. Some list a price and tell you there's a 3% discount for money orders. This is legal. Most charge an add-on of 3% or even 5% if you use a credit card. This is both illegal and contrary to the rules of the credit card companies, but it seems most gun buyers put their sense of what's right and wrong on hold if they think it'll save them a couple of bucks on a sale, so nobody seems to complain to the credit card companies.

The ethical questions aside, this means you can't compare based only on the listed price, because you might find three guns for $800, but one IS for $800, one might be $800 but deduct 3% if you send a money order, and the third might be $800 plus 3% if you want to put it on plastic.

[maillemaker]

Also, while most of the sellers on Guns America accept Visa and MasterCard, their policies differ. Very few sell at the same price for cash or credit card, but a few do. Some list a price and tell you there's a 3% discount for money orders. This is legal. Most charge an add-on of 3% or even 5% if you use a credit card. This is both illegal and contrary to the rules of the credit card companies, but it seems most gun buyers put their sense of what's right and wrong on hold if they think it'll save them a couple of bucks on a sale, so nobody seems to complain to the credit card companies.

I am a credit card merchant myself for my own business. The reason why a lot of gun sellers do this is because the credit card companies usually charge 1.5% - 3+% per transaction, plus a transaction fee. You are right - the credit card companies don't want you to have separate pricing tiers for people using their cards, because it discourages people from using them (and then they lose money on all those interest payments). So most businesses just assume every purchase is going to be a credit card purchase and the price of that transaction is factored into the price of the product. If someone pays cash, that's just an extra 3% profit right in their pocket. But Profit margins are so tight and competition is so fierce on firearms that dealers are willing to give you the discount if you don't use a credit card (with it's associated fees). They also know that if they tried to just price all of their guns at plus 3% to cover the people who might use a credit card they would lose sales to people who sort the online listings by price - the merchants who list by "cash sales" price will show up first and seem cheaper.

Since 3% on a $500 gun is $15, that just about covers your shipping costs.

Steve

[Hawkmoon]

Steve,

Yes, I understand why they do it. My objection is simply that by doing it they are breaking the rules imposed by the banks and the card companies, and in many states they are breaking the law.

The practical problem for someone shopping for a gun is that not all the merchants deal with it the same, and your example of sorting by price is the perfect illustration. You may find a gun that appears cheaper, but either that seller imposes a surcharge if you want to use plastic and the one above doesn't ... or maybe the one you're looking at is a seller who just has one price, but the one for $20 more offers a 3% cash discount that would offset the price difference. The caveat emptor here is simply that the listed prices are not all apples-to-apples.

[warmrain]

It may be worth the couple percent to have the purchase protection offered by the card.

Two purchases on GA. #1 the gun was totally misrepresented, I mean totally. Not stainless, nickle. Not bright stainlesss, but brushed nickle with an attempt to get it polished... And, not LNIB, but shot the H out of and never cleaned... There were not questions asked on the return though. It just cost me return shipping... And this was a "cash" sale.

Only other experiance was a CC sale on a pistol that was totally honestly (NIB) represented and I will go back (K5 Arms).

[Hunter]

You would be doing yourself a favor going with the Colt. I do not like the Swartz safety or the external extractors on the S&Ws.I like the look of a quality blued 1911 a little better but the stainless is less maintenance. You thinking is right on time as far as going with the Colt 1911.

[warmrain]

Yet, the true Schwarz as implemented on the Kimber has no effect on trigger feel as the alternate method, implemented by Colt, does. Also the external extractor of the S&W design (similar to the Beretta 92FS/M9) does not seem to be an issue.

I love my Colts and also love a quality blued finish, but I feel the need to express the "other side"...

[191145]

I would not buy on GunsAmerica. Since there is no rush to get one, I suggest doing some play-bidding/watching on Gunbroker and Auction Arms until you get a real feel for how the Mk IV Series 70s are going. I have recently bought a like-new Mk IV Series 70 Government Model for $650 on a gun auction, and I just did a quick look and spotted another one on GB. I like the blued guns, but I understand completely about the stainless. Bear in mind that Colt currently makes a Series 70 reproduction, and you really have to sift through the listings to figure out if each gun is an original 70 or one of the new ones. Search for 'Colt 70'. Actually, since the firing system of the new 70 is just like the old one, you may find that you can get the finish/steel you want easier that way. Familiarize yourself with the serial number variations of the original 70s, and you can't go wrong. http://www.sightm1911.com/1911Production.htm

[warmrain]

Exactly why would you not buy on GunsAmerica but consider Gunbroker OK?

[horse 91-A1]

I've had my Colt series 80 (combat/target, adjustable trigger/sights) for about five years w/o any problems; it's my 7 day carry and feeds whatever ammo in whatever manufacturer's mag being used.

Except for revolvers, I have no experience with Smith firearms, nor do I have any experience with Guns America.

My Colt has the ugly ORM in brushed stainless, which is great in the desert sun because lack of reflection and it doesn't heat up when placed on a bench with no shade.

Adios,
Bob

[John]

Yet, the true Schwarz as implemented on the Kimber has no effect on trigger feel as the alternate method, implemented by Colt, does.

My Colt is an S80 from which I have removed the firing pin safety parts. But I've put them together several times and measured the trigger pull before and after. No difference, at least no measureable difference. The saying that the S80 parts do not allow you a decent trigger job is a myth.

[SgtRich]

I have a Colt Government Model, MK IV, Series '70 AND a Smith & Wesson Model SW1911Sc and I love them both! You can't go wrong with either one. Neither the external extractor nor the Schwarz firing pin safety on the S&W 1911's are a problem.

My Colt is over 30 years old and my S&W 1911 is only a month old. I wouldn't give up either one and would trust my life to either one.

As for finish, if I have to choose between blue steel and stainless steel, I'll take stainless steel every time. The finish of a stainless pistol will hold up better than blue steel. If you scratch a stainless pistol, it's very easy to buff out the scratch.

[garrettwc]

The S&W is probably the best "non-conventional" 1911 out there. I rarely hear a negative comment about them. However, because of some of the proprietary stuff on them, they don't lend themselves well to customizing. Based on your stated intentions, I would say Colt all the way. My preference is to the series 70, but the 80 is fine.

I prefer blue, but if you are concerned about finish wear and plan to spend a lot of time outdoors with it, then stainless would be the way to go.

Comparing the two is apples and oranges. The only thing they have in common is they are 1911s. As I said, the S&W is very good. But the Colt is in a whole other league.

No experience with Guns America.

[jumpseater]

Thanks to everyone for the replies. I am going to a gun show on the 25th of march. I'll be going with a full wallet.

One more question. What is a Mark IV?

[dakota1911]

So finally some questions.

1. Am I way off in left field with my thinking?
-No.
2. Blued or stainless? I don't like the idea of the blueing wearing off.
-I think you just answered your own question, so buy stainless. I like both and "bicolor" guns.
3. Can anyone compare the Colt to the S&W?
-I have several Colts and a couple of S&W 1911s. I think they are both very good guns. My personal preference leans to Colt with 1911's.
4. Has anyone bought a gun of the guns america web site?
-I have not.

[gqucool1911]

Jumpseater, it looks like you have gotten alot of great advice. My suggestion to you if you have the money to spend then I would look at several of the top models from Springfield, Kimber, Colt & S&W and pick one out that suits your needs the best. But I would most definetly choose a stainless steel gun over blued. Alot less maintenance in the long run. My 2 cents worth!!

[warmrain]

Bought my nicest 1911 from off of gunsamerica.com (pictured undert the camera icon).

[Dr. Dickie]

Thanks to everyone for the replies. I am going to a gun show on the 25th of march. I'll be going with a full wallet.

One more question. What is a Mark IV?

The military uses (used?) "Mark" as a designation of model of guns (at least big guns on their ships--not small arms). I do not know, but I think Colt sort of introduced this for the same reason; although, what specific changes designates one Mark from another, I am clueless.