IWB holsters

[skydaver]

Any favorites for the P-12?

[JCM298]

I use a Don Hume IWB for my Carry 12. I did add a piece of leather at the top to keep the gun from rubbing my hide raw and it protects the gun too,

John

[SMMAssociates]

DiSantis and Galco make some nice ones....

I have one of the former for my Tac-Four. It'll fit the P13's, or a Commander. Probably the P12, too.

The only problem is that the spring clip is too stiff - it's difficult to put the thing on and take it off the belt. (Hint - leave the weapon in the holster while trying to put the thing on.)

Disregarding "retention" issues - straps over the top of the weapon to make it a little less likely to come out of the holster (a bobbed hammer, like a Tac-Four, can be used with any "cocked & locked" style holster), there seem to be two basic versions of IWB. Those that allow for one-handed re-holstering, and those who don't. My preference is the former.

There are also a bunch of different "attachment" methods - clips, loops, etc., that hold the weapon to your belt. I like the ones that clip over your belt and pants. A "J-Clip" goes over the pants and locks under the belt - guess that'd be OK. I don't care for the kind that use a couple of leather or plastic "belt keeper" loops to hold the holster to your belt, but I guess somebody must like 'em....

Most of the time, though, I keep the Tac-Four in a "slide" with a top strap. Designed for a 1911, it's got an open bottom (i.e, doesn't care how long the barrel/slide is), and is, of course, an OWB. Keeps the gun up into my side a bit. I don't consider this nearly as concealable as an IWB, but it's secure, and one-handed.... Fits my Commander, too....

I've also got a "tuckable" (all of these are from DiSantis) called "Invisible Agent" or something like that. The idea there is that a J-Clip holds the gun into your pants, and the clip is set up so that your shirt can cover the whole thing. Ain't quick, and it takes three hands to work with, but it does conceal. The Tac-Four's really too big, but it's OK with my Commander, and I have a similar holster for an old PPK/S that works well enough that way.

(The "Invisible Agent" will work with nearly any large semi-auto - one size fits all - but doesn't like my PPK/S. A velcro strap does all the "holding". Seems secure enough. YMMV.)

Buying a holster is kind of individual. It seems like you end up with four or five in the drawer for every one you decide to stick with. Probably best to go to a well stocked dealer and see what you like. He should have a similar weapon to "test" with. It's not a good idea to unholster your own in the shop :eek: , but I expect that bringing it in boxed, unloaded, wouldn't bother anybody.

Skydaver: I hope I'm not restating the obvious for you - it's impossible to tell what sort of level of knowledge you have. Just hope that some of this might be useful to somebody....

I don't recommend Uncle Mike's holsters. Cheap enough, but.... I also don't like Kydex & similar construction because it's _very_ dependent on the precise shape of the weapon, and Para's got too many models. Leather can be formed.... Nylon can't either, come to think of it, but they're often a little stretchy. DeSantis, btw, is not particularly expensive either.

[skydaver]

For concealed carry, I've been using a fanny pack for 9 years, (so far, it seems to be OK, no one has ever asked whether I was carrying, and I wear it just about anytime I'm not dressed up, ie. 99.9%, whether I'm carrying or not.)

I am aware, and was aware when I chose it, of the 'obviousness' of fanny pack carry, and I'm also cognizant of the speed of draw problems, compared to a belt carry.

If I go OWB, I need to change how I dress. IWB, if I get a 'tuckable' style, I might not have to (although I probably would have to change SOMETHING, since my normal dress is golf shirt or rugby shirt, and chinos in some color (cargo shorts in the summer.)

A holster carry would almost certainly print under a golf shirt.

An IWB would also require new pants, since I'd need a bit more room (I've lost some weight, so some of my slacks might have room, but some of the newer ones don't)

Stu, I'm not at all insulted. I don't consider myself a total neophyte, but neither am I an expert. Even if I were, a good discussion is ALWAYS of value, whatever your level of expertise.

Finally, apropos not of this subject, but of tactics, I am watching the LPGA as I write this, and picked up the flash off the binoculars of a fan. My first thought was 'bad concealment' ;-)

[Hawkmoon]

Stu --

Is the Tac Four really that much bigger than a Commander? The Tac Four is based on the P13, which is a 4-1/4" Commander-length barrel, right? So the difference is only in grip thickness?

I've compared my P12 and LDA12 to a friend's full-size 1911 and to me there just isn't all that much difference. The Paras use thinner grip panels that almost completely compensate for the double stack frame thickness.

[SMMAssociates]

Skydaver:

Without starting an argument, I don't like fanny packs. Mostly because I'm rather big, and "wide load" starts to get serious :eek: . I've also got problems with "off body" carry issues in terms of purses, briefcases, etc. The fanny pack _almost_ fits those....

My other problem is that OH's got so many CPZ situations going on that I just don't want to be noticed. Not that I'm going to go into a building that's posted, but there are some situations where you can't see the sign, or there isn't one! (Yup.... Restaurants with liquor licenses don't have to post. Problem is that I can name one here that you'd never notice until after you got the menu.) It's just too easy to accidentally end up someplace you don't want to be.

However, it looks like you're seeking information on how to carry when you're not able to use the fanny pack. Really not appropriate in Church or something like that.

For casual wear, you might consider a pocket holster, but I have a feeling you'll need to buy bigger pockets or a smaller gun.

I found that the Tac-Four carried well in that slide OWB, as well as the IWB I mentioned. My usual outfit is a "camp" style shirt - kind of a men's dress shirt with a square bottom. It rides about 6" below the beltline. It's also a little bit obvious, I guess, but either holster "works". If I'm in a suit, the jacket covers everything anyway. I just can't take it off. Minor nuisance.

One of those "tuckables" does the job (DeSantis isn't the only maker) when I think I'll need to remove my jacket.... Those might be a good choice for you, too, since you don't have to "tuck" it if you don't want to - it's a very low carry, even for an IWB, but they seem OK. Stay off that velcro "Invisible Agent", though, and go with something that fits. Off the top of my head, anything for the Colt Commander ought to work, although I'm not sure if the slide length would be right.

I was going to say something about clips, but then my brain reset.... The one I don't really like on this DeSantis IWB would be perfect for "no belt".... Point being that you need to look for an attachment system that "fits" your needs. A plastic clip that securely locks to your belt may still be useless if you're not wearing a belt, as will those "loop" things, and a J-Clip. Meantime, you really want a belt clip that goes all the way around the belt and clips onto it. Otherwise the fool clip sticks out another quarter-inch or so....

Finally, IWB or OWB, consider the belt.... The P-12 isn't a real lightweight. There are some double-weight leather belts out there that thin out to "normal" in front, so they don't look like "gunbelts". Possibly a good idea. Alternatively, a 1.5" to 1.75" belt that's about a quarter-inch thick should be good enough. IWB's get some help from your pants that I don't see with OWB's. Make sure the "clip" fits the belt....

If I had it to do over again, I think I'd skip the double-stacker. The Tac-Four's not all that heavy when it's empty, but put 13+1 in there and my pants want to fall down.... :eek:

[SMMAssociates]

Stu --

Is the Tac Four really that much bigger than a Commander? The Tac Four is based on the P13, which is a 4-1/4" Commander-length barrel, right? So the difference is only in grip thickness?

I've compared my P12 and LDA12 to a friend's full-size 1911 and to me there just isn't all that much difference. The Paras use thinner grip panels that almost completely compensate for the double stack frame thickness.

Hawk:

Mostly just a thicker grip frame and a lot more weight. The P13/Tac-Four grip frame is actually _shorter_ than a Commander by a quarter-inch or so, being closer to "Officer's Model" size, but when you stick a magazine with that thick bottom pad in there it looks to be the same size.

The slide seems to be the same size as a Commander - the only difference there is Para's choice of wide serrations instead of the little tiny ones that Colt used.

It may be subjective, but the grip width seems to be about a quarter-inch wider than my Commander, and it's got Pachmayr grips on it, which are a tad bulky. The overall "feel" is "bigger" anyway.... The Pearce grips on the Tac-Four don't help the "feels bulky" thing much, but they really don't add much to the size of the grip as long as you keep your fingers in the grooves. Kind of like putting a thick piece of that boat tape on the front strap.

(Did you know that Browning designed the grip & trigger dimensions to fit the average adult male in 1911? Most people have bigger hands now, which, interestingly, makes these things a better fit for women shooters than they used to be. My shrimp kid has no problem getting her hands around my Commander. I ordered a drop-in beavertail for it - Para did a better job there 'cause the Commander bites me a little, while the Para just can't.)

IAC, they can share leather just fine. I've not tried Kydex (I don't like it anyway), so I can't comment. Leather's got enough "give", as does "stretch nylon" like Uncle Mike's uses a lot of, to cover any differences. The real issue is the extra weight that six or seven more rounds give you, and the size & weight of the spare magazine.

[SMMAssociates]

Hawk:

Here are a couple of pictures. My apologies for the poor quality of the "bottoms up" shot. (Replaced 10/18/2004) You can see the difference in the grip frame width easily enough anyway, and the other shot shows (no mags in either gun) the grip frame length. It's also fairly easy to see that they're otherwise about the same size.


http://tinypic.com/d7iqb (New Picture)

:eek:

http://tinypic.com/d5l4p


With the standard Colt mags, the Commander's about exactly the same size. The Para's magazines make the grip more or less the same length as the Commander. The overall width of the two, with grips, is similar, but there's a lot more of it on the Tac-Four.

(Added 10/18) The Commander grip frame plus grips makes a sort of squared-off oval, while the Tac-Four's essentially square. The Pearce grips bulk up the front a little - less than I think the photo seems to show. From a concealment standpoint, the Tac-Four's going to print a bit more in some cases because of the "square" butt, but I don't think it's enough to care about unless you live in TX. :) IMHO, the Pachmayr's make the Commander a bit "fatter" in the palm swell and thumb rest areas, but are otherwise "close enough" to stock that printing issues can be ignored.)

(I posted these "offline" so folks browsing the board don't get stuck with two BIG pictures unless they want to see them.)

[skydaver]

I know a lot of folks don't care for fanny packs, and I would never argue with someone that has thought about it, and decided against it. It seems to work for me, though. I'm 6'2", down to 175 from 200 lbs, and I'm almost always dressed casual, with my shirttails tucked in. I wear the fanny pack everywhere, carrying or not (got the wallet off my butt, gives me a place for the PDA, Epi-Pen, etc.)

There are a number of places around here where I can't carry, and I've never had a cop or mall cop approach me and ask if I was carrying.

My son's highschool had a police officer on duty there during the school day, and I passed by him several times, with no questions asked.

So, I'm fairly sure that the fanny pack is working OK. I try my absolute best to be in condition Orange, so I'm not too worried about a goblin seeing it, and thinking GUN. In fact, I sort of think that, plus the awareness I try to project, would send a goblin on his way to weaker prey.

As far as thickness on the Para vs. regular 1911, I'm going to have to go and measure mine now. ;-) Got one of each.

(on edit) wanted to add, I was NOT carrying in the school, just wearing the fanny pack, and never got stopped, nor even a glance (that I saw)

[SMMAssociates]

Skydaver:

So, how'd the measurement go? :)

I posted a new pic of the "butts" that's not out-of-focus, and did a little editing of my message, above.

On the range, or in/on the belt, about all I can tell is that the Para fills my hand rather a bit more. Disregarding the LDA and capacity issues, they're pretty much the same gun if I'm not looking. As an old wheel-gunner, I prefer the longer trigger pull of the LDA, but both now shoot about the same place.

I don't think fanny packs would work well up here in the rust belt, but if it works for you....

[skydaver]

Tonight, tonight ... I don't have a dial caliper (must fix that someday) so I'll trace the butts of a Colt Gold Cup, and a Para-P12. I can scan that and post it, too.

I would agree that the Para fills your hand a little more. IIRC, the difference is 1/8 inch, but I don't remember if that's total circumference, or thickness. I *think* it might be circumference.

If I lived in the rust belt, I might be dressed differently, and be wearing an IWB tuckable.

Here in central NC, it's pretty rare to get many days in a row where the temperature stays below freezing all day.

[skydaver]

I finally got around to checking the Para against a Colt.

The tracing didn't come out very well, so I'm not going to bother scanning it in.

The Para P12-45 grip is just under 1/8" thicker, side to side, than the Colt (a Series 80 Gold Cup)

The total circumference, measured with a tailor's measuring tape (very flexible) was
137mm for the Colt, and 158mm for the Para.

Since we're talking concealablity, and suitability for an IWB, I would say that if 1/8 inch is making that much of a difference, you must be dressed like the model in the Cobra Gun Skin ads ;-)

I have no problem gripping the Para, and I don't have large hands (usually have lots of room in a mens large ski glove, for example, and wear a medium large golf glove)

When I grip the Colt, my thumb can overlap the first joint of my middle finger, just under the trigger guard, by about 1/4" . On the Para, the tip of my thumb comes just to the first joint on my middle finger.

So, there you have it. Scientific analysis ;-)

(Use what you like, and what works)

[SMMAssociates]

Well, anyway....

The overall effect, IMHO, is that the rather squarer grip frame on the Para is going to stick out a bit more than the somewhat rounded single-stacker. This really doesn't mean much, but it does print a little more....

I don't dress in tight clothes. Well, not intentionally. Some of my older shirts are a little tighter but.... (I put on some weight....) Generally, we see printing that others likely won't, of course, but that big square handle may just be a bit more obvious. 'Course, I suppose it looks like a cellphone. Or a truck jack.... :eek:

Seriously, Para did a good job here - it really isn't _that_ big. I'm not sure it's the best choice for "deep carry", but it's not that bad.

Must be something wrong with me, or maybe I forgot to load the thing, but it seems lighter lately. :)

[fierce_carrot]

I have a Bianchi for my 12.45 and its a pretty decent holster. I had to modify it with a razor knife as at times the clip eject button came in contact with the holster and the clip came out. One quick slice and that problem was taken care of.

[JCM298]

fierce_carrot,

My Bianchi did the same thing. I cut a triangular slot and glued/sewed two pieces of leather at the top and bottom of the cut marks. The leather pushes the frame away from the inside of the holster and helps prevent the mag release from being pressed accidently.

It would be embarassing to need the gun and find out that you had a single shot because the mag dropped out of the frame as you were drawing it,

John