Sperm Whale Oil Substitute-Non Petroleum Based

[The Virginian]

I have an original 1911 made in 1918 and have the original manual, holster and belt. The manual says that after cleaning it should be lubricated and all exterior surfaces should wiped down with Sperm (Whale) Oil. CITES II makes it illegal to even own Sperm Whale Oil in the US. I have looked at two non-petroleum based substitutes, Shark or Fish Liver Oil or Jojoba oil. I want to use non petroleum based oils for nostalgic reasons, so please, no posts about Ed's Red, ATF, Mobil 1 or FP-10 etc. I am looking for an oil that is closest to the SWO that the manual suggests using. Jojoba oil is ordorless and won't stink like the Shark/Fish liver oils, but I am wondering which one comes closest to the SWO in properties?

[John]

LoL, man you are fanatic!!!

[Charles Jenkins]

Well umm John:

What about a person who is a fanatic about a firearm and chooses to live in EUROPE? Even worst, where they put pine pitch in the wine. (Hey tough guys out there a free pile up on the top dog!)

Back to the question. Whale oil was widely used until about 1950. It did not turn "tacky" with time. I used it in clocks. However, since it has been 50 years I don't remember if it smelled like fish or not.

I doubt if any other animal oil has the same characteristics. When whale oil was no longer available I don't recall any other animal oil being suggested as a replacement. I turned to a WD-40 like oil in clocks. However, mechanical clocks were soon gone too. Not what you wanted to hear I know.

Charles

[Hawkmoon]

Charles, I don't have a clue where one might even research the lubricating properties of whale oil. Somehow, I suspect that logging onto the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) web site isn't going to turn up much ...

Are you going to be shooting this relic, or are you looking for the oil just as a preservative and rust preventive? Would mineral oil (as in the stuff you buy from the pharmacy) work?

[The Virginian]

I think I am writing this in English, but somehow I get answers that are obviously the result of not reading my post carefully. Hawkmoon: NOT PETROLEUM BASED, mineral oil comes from petroleum oil. No flame intended, but I am looking at more natural substitutes. My goal is to use non petroleum based oil, which is what they would have used during WWI, the sperm whale oil. Someone on the 1911Forum suggested I try caster oil as it too is very close to SWO. Jojoba seems to be the best so far, so I will try that for now. Charles, thanks for the insight, it seems that once SWO became scarce, the automotive industry turned to petroleum based ATF and so did watch makers. Jojoba oil is hard to make in quantity, but from what I have read it is almost a duplicate for SWO in that it resists heat, corrosion, racincidity and is a oil that tends to stay put.

[Charles Jenkins]

Good Luck Virginian:

You must like the book. Every time I open a can of tomatoes I think of it.

There is a plant oil I use on my skin. Aloe Vera mostly from Mexico. This is made in quantity. Never tried it as a lubricate. I use it because I do not tolerate mineral oil well.

In WW-2 many Marines thought a hair oil, Brill Cream, (do not remember the spelling), maybe you could ask some of the older guys :-), was a good lubricant for the conditions.

Charles

[Hawkmoon]

I think I am writing this in English, but somehow I get answers that are obviously the result of not reading my post carefully. Hawkmoon: NOT PETROLEUM BASED, mineral oil comes from petroleum oil. No flame intended, but I am looking at more natural substitutes.
I read your post. And if you don't intend to flame, try being more courteous in your responses. Pardon me all to heck for not having a Ph.D. in petroleum engineering, but I was not aware that mineral oil is petroleum-derived, and I was trying to be helpful.

Quite honestly, if I were not myself a moderator I would report this post and ask that you be warned for engaging in personal attacks.

[Charles Jenkins]

Hawkmoon:

This doesn't seem personal to me. This young man is trying to "fish" out a difficult historical question. As John said LoL without much encouragement for success.

The great thing about this site is most people try to help. My experience is you are right up there at the top. I say keep it up and don't let small things worry you.

Semper Fi, Charles

[John]

Gentlemen, let me get one thing clear. THIS IS A GENTLEMEN's PLAYGROUND. Replies like:

"I think I am writing this in English, but somehow I get answers that are obviously the result of not reading my post carefully."

especially from a new comer are lacking respect to the other member. As Hawkmoon noticed, he is not obliged to know that all mineral oils are petroleum derivatives (and somehow, even I as a chemist, am not sure of that either).

When I post a question here, I am thankful for whatever answer I receive. It means that the person answering it, is trying to help you out. His knowledge or expertise might not allow him to offer you a solution to your problem, but for sure he is trying to. If you do not appreciate that, then you have a problem and you should solve it.

What about a person who is a fanatic about a firearm and chooses to live in EUROPE?

I do not live here by choice Charles. I was born and raised here. And maybe this country is not close what good old US has to offer, in terms of guns, but it sure offers other things, which I love. Maybe, if I was given the chance, I would move from Greece, but I am not sure about that.

[Moose63845]

CITES II makes it illegal to even own Sperm Whale Oil in the US.
Is this everywhere and all SWO or just new or what? I have a friend that has probably a quart at least of SWO leftover from when it was legal and just curious.

[The Virginian]

Technically it is illegal to own in the US and many countries, but I suspect if you don't go around offering it on eBay like some rocket scientist did, and have it for your own use, no CITIES II gestapo will pound down your door. Man, I'd love to have just a few ozs myself.

[r_u_stuck2]

http://www.lubegard.com/about.html

"A dedicated and highly skilled research team, in conjunction with the Department of Agriculture, developed a revolutionary new technology derived from vegetable oils. Liquid Wax Esters®, with a chemical configuration similar to sperm whale oil, have been shown to outperform sperm whale oil. "

Google is your friend.

[danang]

If it was legal, and he had it then, he is okay. For your friends info.: the best I can determine is that Jojoba oil is molecularly identical to sperm whale oil. Even smells the same. That said, it was the best at the time for high load applications/ used in Jeep transfer cases. When whales got scarce, auto makers devised a substitute...ATF. Much better, but petroleum. Castor Oil was used for airplane engines during WWI...can you imagine sitting behind one of those leaky engines for a couple hours at at time breathing and swallowing Castor Oil. Had to be a loosening experience. They used it in auto racing engines until the 60's...Castrol was the original. Now something better. The jojoba you can get does not have modern anti-rust additives...there are better alternatives: e.g. Eezox, FP10, CLP. JMHO

[The Virginian]

Danang:
Thanks for the additional information on Castor oil and Jojoba oil. My guess is the Sperm Whale Oil and Castor Oil did not have anti-rust additives either, but if there was a film of it on the gun it would act as a barrier to corrosion. I think I will use Jojoba oil, but I will cheat a little bit by adding a little CorrosionX to it. Another reason why I like the idea of Jojoba oil is it can be rubbed into your hands after handing a gun or gun rag soaked with it with no wash up needed as with petroleum products. It doesn't have much smell to it either.

[The Virginian]

FYI:

Jojoba oil is also almost neutral in pH naturally so it not going to cause acid corrosion. It is also used in machinery in the food industry as a replacement for SWO.

[plarkinjr]

Your endeavor to remain nostalgic is honorable.... and it looks like Jojoba oil is your answer... but, I gotta say: if you use superior modern products, your antiques will last longer. Heck, I'm glad I have modern products for use on myself, for that very reason!

And yes, WWI pilots spent a lot of time on the crapper from ingesting castor oil They had a term for it, but I cannot recall what it is. They talked about that on some History Channel show. (engines back then were "total loss" lubricating - no sump - you filled it with enough oil to match the amount of fuel you filled it with).

[The Virginian]

Your endeavor to remain nostalgic is honorable.... and it looks like Jojoba oil is your answer... but, I gotta say: if you use superior modern products, your antiques will last longer. Heck, I'm glad I have modern products for use on myself, for that very reason!

And yes, WWI pilots spent a lot of time on the crapper from ingesting castor oil They had a term for it, but I cannot recall what it is. They talked about that on some History Channel show. (engines back then were "total loss" lubricating - no sump - you filled it with enough oil to match the amount of fuel you filled it with).

I think if I were to put the gun into storage for any period of time I would use CorrosionX on it. I did ask a friend who uses Jojoba oil on his vintage machine guns and he thought since Jojoba oil is really a wax and tends to stay put, there was no disadvantage in using it for corrosion prevention. If I were to have to use the gun in the field for serious social use, I would probably use a more modern alternative, but since this is not the case, I'll use the Jojoba for now.

[plarkinjr]

... If I were to have to use the gun in the field for serious social use, I would probably ...

Social use? Hmm.... dunno why that strikes me as funny. :D

[saltydog]

You might want to check with some of the blackpowder shooters who try to be 'historically correct' and ask how tools/weapons were maintained.

Somehow I can't see a French Cannadian trapper in the mid-1700s carrying around a bottle of Hoppes#9 and a bottle of Rem Oil. Somehow, some of these weapons remain in remarkably good condition.

salty.

[Tom T Bosee]

I have an original 1911 made in 1918 and have the original manual, holster and belt. The manual says that after cleaning it should be lubricated and all exterior surfaces should wiped down with Sperm (Whale) Oil. CITES II makes it illegal to even own Sperm Whale Oil in the US. I have looked at two non-petroleum based substitutes, Shark or Fish Liver Oil or Jojoba oil. I want to use non petroleum based oils for nostalgic reasons, so please, no posts about Ed's Red, ATF, Mobil 1 or FP-10 etc. I am looking for an oil that is closest to the SWO that the manual suggests using. Jojoba oil is ordorless and won't stink like the Shark/Fish liver oils, but I am wondering which one comes closest to the SWO in properties?
All I can tell you is the last time I went to Nantucket I couldn't find Captain Ahab, and the Pequod is still out at sea.

[The Virginian]

I guess it has been almost 2 centuries since you were in Nantucket? Seriously, the Jojoba oil will fit the bill for now, but I did make some quite discoveries at a Militaria show this weekend. On guy had a full machine gun oiler full of the stuff and told me he could part with it for $400.00. Needless to say I passed on it.

[Tom T Bosee]

Here's what Sam Fadala wrote in "Black Powder Handbook& Loading Manual", "It (whale oil) will not dry out, gum up, or break down under anything like normal heat and cold ranges, and it definitely will never rust a bore on its own". He goes on to say what a good leather preserver it is as well. Now, if I could just hook up with Queequeg, with his harpoon, we might get some of this stuff! I wonder what JMB recommended as a lubricant for his firearms?

[Hawkmoon]

According to Army field manual FM 23-35 (1940) -- "sperm oil."

[The Virginian]

The more I read, it seems Jojoba oil will do everything that Sperm (Whale) Oil will do except not smell fishy.

[Geo.]

The more I read, it seems Jojoba oil will do everything that Sperm (Whale) Oil will do except not smell fishy.

I know that you are trying to be as athentic as possible and I have no problem with that. However, remember that the recommendation to use SWO was not based on any sacrosanct or magical property of SWO. The recommendation was made before the petroleum industry was well developed and did not have good products to offer. At least, the petroleum industry did not have products that were at the level of the whaling industry. SWO was a traditional lube and a good one, but it was used at a time when there was no real competition from the Oil Industry, either. Things are really different now, with whale hunting banned and the petroleum industry at a height of product development that is unmatched. WWII had a lot to do with that, too.

I hope that Jojoba Oil works well for you, but if all else fails buy one of the petroleum-derived synthetic waxes that has virtually the same chemical properties. I still have most of my original gallon of Jojoba Oil in an original plastic flex container. Unlike the SWO, it has not done well in experiments making bullet lube.

[oldCop]

As a user of traditional blackpowder firearms....here is what was widely used in the Colonies: a mixture of rendered suet (beef, bear or deer preferred, but some use pork) and beeswax. The mixture is usually half and half, but varies with personal preference. The advantage to using this traditional mixture in the bore of blackpowder guns is the seasoning of the bore that takes place eventually much like a cast iron skillet which fills the pores of the metal. It is also used topically to prvent corrosion, but it is by no means as effective as the modern synthetics. Bear oil (very costly) does, however, aparently have good lubricating properties.