Stainless or carbon steel?

[pdoppenheim]

While in the process of saving for an Ed Brown Kobra Carry, my FFL recommended carbon steel over my choice of stainless. He said that he had seen less problems with the carbon steel in terms of frames and slides galling or cracking. He said that if stainless was so good, why didn't the military go to it? I will carry the gun off duty and use it for some IDSP. (I know the 5" makes a better competitive gun, but after 15 years or so on a pistol team, I just want to shoot for the fun of it.)

I've been around guns for a long, long time and I know there were some problems with the early stainless tooling and manufacturing methods, but I thought they were fixed now.

Note: His comment was not specific to an Ed Brown gun. This was just his observation about the two different metals in general.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[KWBSales]

In Ed's case, I believe that the Kobra Carry in stainless is a higher volume seller than the blued version. I think the reason for that is that they usually advertise the stainless Kobra Carry in most of their print ads. Nevertheless, I don't think you can go wrong in either case for off duty carry. However, if you want an extremely durable finish, you can always send a blued Kobra Carry off to be hard chromed.

[Huevos]

I have both carbon steel and SS guns, haven't had any problems with either. I have read a couple posts about people's galling problems with stainless, it hasn't happened to me though. I also have two carbon steel guns with hard chrome and I really like the durability of those. I have a question for KWBSales though. I read somewhere a while back that EB wouldn't warranty any guns or parts that had been hard chromed due to the heating of that process having an affect on the metal (although I don't see any mention of it on their site). Now I know that EB doesn't have a written warranty, but they still fix their guns if there's a problem. I'm just curious since my EB KC is blued carbon steel and I might want to hard chrome it someday. Sorry if I hijacked your thread a little hear pdoppenheim.

[KWBSales]

P:
Ed Brown will usually not warranty the pistol after a hard chrome finish has been applied. However, if it were me, I wouldn't hesitate to have my Ed Brown pistol hard chromed. As long as you are using quality parts (which Ed Brown certainly does), you shouldn't have any issues with hard chroming any components. I would just recommend that you are happy with the performance of your pistol prior to shipping it off to be hard chromed. You can also contact Chris at Metaloy or Virgil at Tripp Research for any questions regarding the hard chrome process.

[Frampy]

Stainless is not nearly as good a carbon steel. Get your carbon hard chromes at Tripp that is where Nighthawk sent my Predator II Bobtail, The finish is so much nicer than stainless!!!! Nighthawk won't make a stainless gun?????? For whatever thats worth. They say they probably lose business over this but they feel that strongly about it!

[leade45]

Carbon Steel will hold up a bit better over time and some even suggest accuracy as well.

Two excellent finishes are Black-T or go the hard- chromed route.
I think hard-chroming will hold up better than the Black-T, but I think I would rather have a gun in black if I were carrying it.

[dakota1911]

Time for my two cents worth.

You could call or send a letter to Ed Brown and ask him what percent of his carbon steel guns gall and crack versus what percent of his stainless steel guns. ;)

Yes, in the early days of using stainless in firearms there were problems. If the grain structure was wrong it would gall. It was harder so it wore out machine tools faster and often once the part was made tolerances were looser in the finished gun, and there were other problems. I think S&W and Ruger were leaders in solving the problems with using stainless in guns. Of course there were other manufacturers in areas like aerospace who wanted to solve the problems to make their own products out of stainless The problems were solved however. These days any reputable manufacturer has a choice of many quality carbon or stainless steel alloys to make a gun or other product from.

The military doesn't need stainless They have people to inspect your gun and make your life unhappy if it is not clean and well maintained, or at least they used to. :> That and I think until recently before the flat, grey unpolished stainless guns became popular most people associated stainless with shiny, and who wants to carry a shiny gun if your job involves carrying a gun, particuarly when the other guys have guns to shoot at you? Not me at least. Back when I used to carry a gun in the open I had a blued 70's Colt Gov (still have it). I even replaced the wood grips with black Pachmeyers to make it less noticable. Even today, if I had to carry a gun in the open for a job I would not want a shiny one, but back when I carried the Colt Gov I had a little stainless Detonics concealed in sweaty areas for backup.

And while on the subject of history, dating from the same period, in the 80,s, I also bought a stainless AMT hardballer, a loose copy of a Colt Gold Cup that was not quite built to Colt standards, but then, it was also a lot cheaper than a Colt. In all these years I have had no galling or cracking with either of these early stainless .45s and they have seen lots of rounds Also dating from 1984 I have a S&W 686 (stainless) revolver that has seen tons of 38 special loads and its share of 357s with no galling or cracking. Dating from 1976 I have a stainless Ruger Blackhawk in 357 mag that has seen lots of hot 357 loads. Again no galling or cracking.

Obviously I am sold on stainless but I think for corrosion resistance it is not as important as it once was. While a lot of smart people were working on better steels, other smart people were working on better ways to protect them and thanks in part to military demand today we have a bunch of wonderful lubricants and protectants for our guns.

Oh, in case anyone wonders. At the moment, when I do carry a gun (concealed) I usually pack a Commander sized S&W 1911 SC and yes, it is black and I took off the wood grips and put black carbon fibre grips on it. At the range, however flash is where its at, so when I take my overpriced paper punches of a 1911 flavor out to shoot them I prefer stainless or "bicolor", esp. with a stainless grip frame and blued slide.

[norske48]

There are many varieties of stainless steel, some better for making spoons, etc, and several exactly what is needed to make a top-notch pistol or rifle. Stainless steel, as with carbon steels as well, can be pre-heat treated to the required hardness, along with the right amount of temper, or annealed to make sure they aren't too hard, as to make them difficult to machine and/or brittle. The single biggest difference between the two metals is the fact that most stainless steels won't rust, and of course we all know how fast carbon steel will if not protected. Both materials work well. It's mainly a choice as to cost and the operators level of maintenance to keep them looking and performing correctly.

[SPL15]

All stainless steel will rust eventually depending on how much Free Chromium is mixed in. This is what makes steel "stainless" but it will still rust, especially the "stainless" steel used for guns.

The stainless used for guns is right on the border line for being considered stainless or just carbon steel with lots of chromium. Chromium will make the steel harder (rockwell C) but also make it much more brittle. Two things you dont want in a gun because of machinability and well a brittle gun will break easier. This is why polymer frames work on guns. They are really tough and are not brittle.

Stainless is more brittle than regular carbon steel no matter how you slice and dice it. I havent heard of any high tech stainless that is as tough and durable as the common grades of carbon steel.

I have several carbon steel guns that have the flats polished mirror smooth with no coating at all and no rust whatsoever with daily carry and heavy use, but my SigArms P226 with a stainless slide develops surface rust spots in the summer unless heavily coated with protectant. My kimber also has had tiny surface rust develop on the stainless barrel and the stainless slide after carry.

You gotta remember that the carbon steel your gun is made from is exposed on parts of the gun from use. Your barrel is a good example on most 1911's. The hood is brushed bare metal yet doesnt rust but the barrel is carbon steel.

Unless you got wierd blood types, basic precautions will prevent rust on a carbon steel gun. If you want flashy for the range, get it hard chromed. Your gun will last forever. Hard Chrome gives a nice hard rockwell C scale rating which prevents stupid scratches and also gives better wear on the rails, etc.

For me, I see no reason for Stainless Steel on guns. Doesnt have optimal properties for guns and costs more. Not to mention more likely to gall.

I can tell you this though. There are some really really high tech steels out there used for knife making that would be perfect for guns but I think the gun would cost about $15,000 due to the cost of the steel and the many bits required to machine the steel. Steel Technology isnt limiting gun manufacturers, Budgets are.

[rovman]

Stainless is not nearly as good a carbon steel. Get your carbon hard chromes at Tripp that is where Nighthawk sent my Predator II Bobtail, The finish is so much nicer than stainless!!!! Nighthawk won't make a stainless gun?????? For whatever thats worth. They say they probably lose business over this but they feel that strongly about it!


Could this just possibly be because Nighthawk manufactures none of the components used to build their guns? They have to do the tooling work on the slides and frames that they buy from Other gun manufactuers, stainless is much harder to work with and requires stronger more expensive tools to make a gun with,To actually Build the components of a 1911 requires several expensive Machines, Nighthawk custom is not outfitted for such an endeavor, thus they make no stainless guns!!

[John]

Strange! I always thought that stainless is softer than blue steel. But I may be wrong, I am no metallurgist.