Very odd question/observation

[Saskia Quelle]

This is going to sound a bit silly, but here goes...

I have been watching a lot of weird war films and documentaries on war on Discovery over the xmas period (as you do... it's better than watching Dr Dolittle for the 60th time!) and have also sunk my teeth into a few books from ex-army personnel. I have noticed one common thing with reference to the author/actor portraying a kill with the Colt...

They all describe firing one shot and the BG goes down straight away. I know people are going to say "hollywood magic!!!" but I do remember reading a report from WWII about an American GI shooting 6 Japs and killing them with his 1911, 5 of them were with one shot, the last took two I believe.

Is a shoot-once method of shooting still practiced; was it ever practiced at all or is this just imaginary thinking or skilled shooting? I mean, do people shoot the BG once, then shoot him again if he hasn't gone down?

I ask this question because the above seems to run in contary to how I, and nearly everybody else I speek to, have been trained. I was always taught to double tap to the COM of the BG.

This is going to sound stupid, but did such one shot stops happen and were they common place? If so, would it be purdent (and saving on ammo!) to only plug a BG once then again if necessary?

Given that people do regard the .45 calibre to be a good stopper, is there any truth to this or is it some author's artistic licence?

[JLH3]

I think that when there are several of them running at you, you shoot at each one once trying to put a hole in each one before they're in your lap.

[Blasterboy]

Saskia,
To answer the question, first off...Yes, they do happen, but not normally or even infrequently. It maybe a case of "blind staggering luck" or in the hands of a trained shooter...purposeful..!! A double tap is two shots with one sight picture. Maybe the first shot is well aimed and hits the target, but normally the second shot is fired under recoil and if it hits the target, will impact high, worse yet miss high. Better yet, a controlled pair is two shots fired at the target...each with its own and separate sight picture. Here we get to the essence of the stopping power of a .45ACP round. One well placed round is capable of producing a stop. As you mentioned usually COM in the thorasic cavity. A contolled pair, as just described, in the thorasic cavity, is going to put the BG in the dirt.....take it to the bank.!! If they impact, in say, a 3" diameter circle. Maximum trauma in a confined space..!! A well trained shooter can consistently produce one shot stops, but none reside in "Hollywood"..!!

[Hunter]

The .45 ACP was developed as a manstopper after the .38 failed in the Philippines and it is very plausible to have a one shot stop from a 230 gr FMJ with 850 fps at the muzzle. I imagine many folks have gone down from one well aimed/placed shot from the .45 ACP.I personally have never shot anyone but I have seen some convincing test done with the .45 ACP through ballistic gel that was very convincing of a one shot stop. So I believe it is possible and has happened many times.

[POPO22]

Saskie, some of the "old-timers" (no disrespect intended) may correct me or agree, but I think that most of the accounts of "one shot/one-kill" were happening against men who were rarely 5'6"/150 lbs.(Japanese men were and are typically smaller)

Against a larger man (6' +), one shot may not be able to "stop him in his tracks", but a well placed .45 shot will eventually do the job I think. We train not to stick to too strick of a routine (one shot or multiple shots, to vary circumstances), but to stop the aggression. (or the threat is gone)

I've seen my share of dead bodies over the years, and I wouldn't venture to say that one technique will work on everyone, too many variables. I realize its hard to simulate when the threat has "gone down" on the practice range, a shooting partner can be useful for these type scenario's. I've used different practices to simulate a target moving toward me while firing, and my partner's will announce when the threat has fallen. You can then go and check your "Hit's".

"Double-Taps", "Mozambique", "Failure drills" etc. are all good to practice while the target is moving toward you, it gives you a more realistic "sense of urgency" to keep in mind. The only "sure drop" would be the "neural strip" (head), and I've even seen "Murphy" screw that up. LOL
Good Luck

[garrettwc]

They all describe firing one shot and the BG goes down straight away. I know people are going to say "hollywood magic!!!" but I do remember reading a report from WWII about an American GI shooting 6 Japs and killing them with his 1911, 5 of them were with one shot, the last took two I believe.

If memory serves, that would be Sgt. York. At the time his was low on ammo and his position was being over run. He fired 1 shot each because 6 will only go into 7 rounds (standard load on a 1911) 1 time.

Shooting in war, and shooting in self defense while similar are not exactly the same. You should shoot until you stop the threat. Preferably while retreating for cover.

[horse 91-A1]

At Iwo Jima, Japanese and American Marines often occupied the same trenches and the 1911 was used a lot in that kind of trench warfare. A marine sgt. was awarded the Medal of Honor charging a Japanese machine gun emplacement with his 1911 and a machete on Guadacanal.

My dad was 101st Airborne WWII and his weapon of choice was the Thompson; as a very young fellow I remember my dad and other WWII vets talk about the .45 - good and bad. I expect that what I overheard as a youngster carried over to having my own 1911 designs today. I expect a burst from a Thompson has an extremely high immediate lethal percentage. The .45 auto is simply a .30-'06 cut off near the base.

Adios,
Bob

[Saskia Quelle]

Thanks guys, that's cleared up a few things!

[Moose63845]

The only training I've ever had "combativly" is from when I was a Police Explorer/Cadet and basically it is shoot until they go down or if there are several put one in each and then back track and take out the ones still standing. The best training for this if you can find it or do it is FATS style training where you shoot at a movie and it reacts to what you do good or bad.

[Saskia Quelle]

One more question/observation thing:

Upon researching for the above, I have come across the classic 9MM parabellum VS. .45 ACP debate.

I know it's mostly hooah and exaggerations, but therein lays the problem I'm having:

I have heard the same argument in favour of .45 for so long, I am starting to think maybe it isn't some rumour/exaggeration and maybe there is some truth to the claims.

Claims like "It only takes 1-2 .45 bullets to put down the target, it'll take 5-6 9mm" and so on. I have also heard lots of stories of how .45 has decimated people, and how 9mm has failed in firefights (the infamous Miami FBI shootout in the 80s is one such reference).

Due to this praise for the .45, I think: "they can't ALL be wrong!"

I have noticed one trend; all the sites I have researched on have been American sites. I haven't found the same calibre debate on European sites I have visited. Do you guys know something we Euro-peons don't know?

I don't want to turn this into a .45 VS [insert calibre here] debate, but if someone could explain the above rumours for me :D

Everybody I've spoken to (Europeans, before anybody asks ;)) says 9mm is more than enough and the difference is minimal. Some Americans I speak to say 9mm is OK, but .45 is so much better.

[Tom]

Do you guys know something we Euro-peons don't know?


LOL I spend several nights drinking with sailors from the HMS Binghamton back in 1991, and that was one of the hottest topics of ... shall we say debate. Mostly good-natured; nothing more than a lot of foul words and seemingly endless pints of Guinness ...

None of these discussions had anything to do with .45ACP vs. 9mm. :D

I've heard this debate over and over, too, to the point where it is hard to separate fact from fiction, or at least urban legend. There are scientific studies and research that can support either side well and similarly discredit the other camp.

But I think you did touch on something - we Americans do seem to favor the .45ACP whereas "the rest of the world" leans towards the 9mm. Both rounds are lethal, certainly, and there is something to be said for carrying a gun with 10, 13, 15 rounds as opposed to 7. But there's something to be said for a bullet that can leave a hole the size of your index finger as opposed to one's pinkie. For me, there's a big plus when I'm at the range, and I can hear my .45ACP booming over the staccato rat-tat-tat sounds of everyone's 9mm.

I prefer the .45ACP because I feel more confident carrying the larger bullet. My logic is that I'd rather have poorly aimed shot with a nearly 1/2" projectile that one from a 9mm projectile.

There's something else, too, as I reread my previous statement. I think in SAE measurements - inches and fractions of an inch. Without a calculator I couldn't tell you what 9mm means, in my extremely myopic American view, in real measurements. I know there's 2 1/2 cm per inch, roughly, so 9mm is something like 1/3 of an inch, give or take, but I have to stop whatever I'm doing and go through the conversion process. I'm more comfortable with the SAE - even in decimal fractions of an inch. And I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking this way. This may have something to do with why Americans, in general, refused to adopt the metric standards, and possibly why some of us prefer calibers (note: not calibres) measured in a standard we know.

If they started marketing .45ACP as 11.5mm, I think it would lose some of its appeal to the average American buyer.

[Deacon Aegis]

Saskia, I'd like to take a shot at this... (pun intended)

Let me open with the forensic analysis of gunshot wounds and the physics behind it.

There are basically two types of balistic effects occuring when a bullet hits the human body. The first, most obvious effect is the damage from the projectile penetrating and destroying flesh as it moves through the body. (The hole) The second, and typically less understood effect is what is called, "hydrolic effect".

Two basic principles to consider that should help with your understanding of the following:

1. We've heard it time and time again, but to reiterate: Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only changed.

2. Water does not compress.

Now to begin...

Basically, as the bullet penetrates the target, the kinetic energy of the bullet is transfered to the target based on resistance. This occurs in the human body mostly due to the tremendous amount of water in the human body. Water, as you may know does not compress, therefore these fluids rapidly and violently displace themselves away from the trajectory of the penetrating mass, often causing severe collateral tissue damage due to ruptured veins and arterial hemorraging, not to mention cellular rupturing and other fun biological degradation. The hydrolic effect is dependant on the mass passing through bleeding off its kinetic energy. The observation of this effect would be a negative acceleration of the projectile, and the resultant thermodynamic energy transmission so many folks refer to as "Newtons". Yes, the principle is a Newtonian effect, but way to many people toss around Newtonion physics with little understanding of the whys and what-for's, so hopefully this will clarify it a bit.

Compression damage of the hydrolic effect is most directly proportionate to how much kinetic energy the bullet can transfer to the target before either being depleted or leaving the body.

Now the argument between the .45 and 9mm debate boils down realistically to the fact that the 9mm, travelling much faster than the .45 and of a smaller mass, is notorious for simply passing completely through the target without significantly depleting its kinetic energy. (I won't even begin to get into splitting hairs over using hollow points verses FMJ and the relationship between energy transfer, expansion, etc.) Without that massive energy transfer of kinetic depletion occurring within the target itself, the hydrolic effect is much less prevalent and nearby tissues to the path of the bullet are relatively unharmed.

The .45 on the other hand will more often than not completely deplete its kinetic energy into the mass of the target, resulting in massive hydrolic effect collateral tissue damage from body fluids rushing away from the impact channel of the bullet. Arterial and organ damage can be noted in regions as far as the brain from impacts to the chest, although typically such balistics damage is more often still limited to the soft tissue areas immediately sorrounding the path of travel of the projectile.

This is why the .45 has the reputation that it has. It dumps most of its energy into the target. Over-penetration issues aside in regards to targets behind your primary target, any energy spent beyond that absorbed by your target is lost and therefore wasted. The ability to transfer the most amount of energy to your target as possible is effecient and effective stopping power. Contrary to popular culture, it's not the hole that will typically kill you, it is the tissue damage from the energy transfered by the bullet into the target that will result in that one shot stop.

If you've ever wondered why the ammunition "Hydra-shock" was called what it was called, this will probably explain it now.

As a side note, the whole purpose and reasoning behind hollowpoint ammunition and the effect that causes expansion of the bullet in the human body (not hitting a bone aside), is the hydrolic effect as discussed above. The hollowpoint round encourages expansion of the bullet upon impact and throughout penetration of the bullet, thus encouraging and significantly enhancing the negative acceleration of the bullet, transfering the kinetc energy of the impact to the target. (Yes I am using the term negative acceleration verses deceleration. Physics is only concerned with acceleration in newtonion principles in a positive and negative frame reference and deceleration is a term physicists do not accept in describing the state of mass in motion.)

The overall effect... less wasted energy... a rapid path to room temperature for somebody...

[Rio Vista Slim]

Deacon Aegis,

THAT was a very good, reasonable post. Thank you!

[Saskia Quelle]

That all makes sense to me!

[MDaughen]

back in the day we used to compare 9mm to a "hot" .38 since that is basically it's caliber, but I personally have always gone .45 because a 9mm might expand but a .45 will not shrink, and in the 80's there were definite concerns about overpenetration, (especially if you "accidentall" loaded a clip with smg ammo)

nowadays you don't have to make the choice between 7 or 13 or 14, my P14-45 is a great example of why!

14+1 cocked and locked!! :D

Para uses thin grips and the feel of the gun is not wider than my other full size .45's

[Saskia Quelle]

How wide is the grip on the P14-45?

[garrettwc]

THAT was a very good, reasonable post. Thank you!

+1. Well thought out and free of the usual "stopping power" hyperbole. An excellent explanation of the physical effects.

Everybody I've spoken to (Europeans, before anybody asks ) says 9mm is more than enough and the difference is minimal. Some Americans I speak to say 9mm is OK, but .45 is so much better.
9MM using modern hollowpoint ammo that has proven to perform as designed has significantly closed the gap between the two calibers. With equal shot placement, I wouldn't sweat the difference personally.

Americans' preference for the .45 is mostly rooted in its history. I was reading an article yesterday about the original adoption of the 1911 as the US military sidearm and how it came to be .45 caliber. Tested rounds ranged from .30 Luger to a.476 round. The Army ultimately adopted the .45ACP in 230gr because it gave them the same thing in an auto that they had the generation before in the Colt SAA 45LC. It has only been in the last 20 years that our military adopted the 9mm so you have several generations of history to overcome.

9mm has failed in firefights (the infamous Miami FBI shootout in the 80s is one such reference).

So many people have read things into this over the years when it comes to ammo performance. The Miami shootout was as much a failure in tactics/training as it was ammo performance. Also the hollowpoint ammo available today is light years ahead of the ammo the FBI was carrying that day, and not all of it was 9MM by the way.

The bottom line is that it's the skill of the technician, not the brand of tools in his box that determines how well the job gets done.

Why do a carry a 1911 in .45 then? Simple. I can shoot it faster and more accurately than anything else out there.

[garrettwc]

How wide is the grip on the P14-45?
About the same size as the Glock 21 or the USP Full size 45.

[OD*]

The Miami shootout was as much a failure in tactics/training as it was ammo performance.

Have you read: Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight. by W. French Anderson, M.D., 1996?
You'll see that was not necessarily the case.

[Saskia Quelle]

About the same size as the Glock 21 or the USP Full size 45.Sounds like a great gun! 14+1 of .45ACP seems brilliant and also somewhat deadly!

[MDaughen]

nah, not much fer readin.....(I lie)

I was stationed at NAS Key West during that time, we had a little debrief with the Key West field office... couple of guys were still carrying wheel guns on that one as I recall...

got into a serious mess, and were way outgunned... one of my reasons for turnin down a job with that agency way back in the day.... :butthead:

[1911Tuner]

One factor that's been overlooked when considering the one-shot stop percentages against enemy infantry.

While the .45 has been touted as a manstopper for years...and rightly so, even firing ball ammo...there's a vast difference between decking a sick and/or exhausted, probably half-starved, scared soldier of any stature and a 6'2" 250-pound gorilla who is possibly under the influence of any number of drugs...has spent, on average, a few years of his life in the exercise yard pumping iron and even steroids. Those factors would tend to influence
the effectiveness of a pistol round...ball or hollowpoint...standard velocity or +p...methinks.

Comments?

[Saskia Quelle]

I see what you mean. I guess some people quite literately lose the will to go on when they are shot.

On a different topic, I am really liking what I see with regards to the Para Ordinance P14-45 pistol. 14+1 of .45 ACP is the selling point for me, IMO.

[Pappy]

One factor that's been overlooked when considering the one-shot stop percentages against enemy infantry.

While the .45 has been touted as a manstopper for years...and rightly so, even firing ball ammo...there's a vast difference between decking a sick and/or exhausted, probably half-starved, scared soldier of any stature and a 6'2" 250-pound gorilla who is possibly under the influence of any number of drugs...has spent, on average, a few years of his life in the exercise yard pumping iron and even steroids. Those factors would tend to influence
the effectiveness of a pistol round...ball or hollowpoint...standard velocity or +p...methinks.

Comments?

Perhaps one should carry a chemical spray (grizzly bear power) in addition to backup firepower??? Pappy

[1911Tuner]

I see what you mean. I guess some people quite literately lose the will to go on when they are shot.


Either the will or the strength. Ever heard the expression..."I'm so tired that a 3 year-old girl could whip me." :D

[Hunter]

I see what you mean. I guess some people quite literately lose the will to go on when they are shot.

On a different topic, I am really liking what I see with regards to the Para Ordinance P14-45 pistol. 14+1 of .45 ACP is the selling point for me, IMO.

Another option on the 14 +1 in .45 ACP is the Springfield high cap 1911. I have had one a while now and believe it to be a quality 1911. The Springfield will use factory or the Para magazines.

[OD*]

Johnny,

While I heartily agree with you that that is the case on many occasions, neither Platt nor Matix had drugs or alcohol in their system.

Matix was 5'11", 180lbs. and Platt was 5' 10", 210lbs. Neither appear to be heavily muscled in the morgue photos, both were referred to as being well-developed and well nourished. As badly as Platt was shot to pieces, he seems to have been running on pure adrenalin & the will to fight.

[Saskia Quelle]

Either the will or the strength. Ever heard the expression..."I'm so tired that a 3 year-old girl could whip me." :D
I can't say I have heard that one before :nono:

:D
Another option on the 14 +1 in .45 ACP is the Springfield high cap 1911. I have had one a while now and believe it to be a quality 1911. The Springfield will use factory or the Para magazines.
I'll have to look into that one. Thanks for the info.

[littledoc]

To get back on topic...

The Miami shootout wasn't an ammo failure, the 9mm silvertips did what they were designed to do. It wasn't tactics, either. The scene escalated so fast there wasn't time to develop any. Sometime you are handed a dung sandwich and you have to eat it. If I remember, that fight was ended by a shot from a short barrel .38 special. The lesson learned is if you are anticipating a fight, bring real firepower.

Sergeant Basilone took on a company of Japanese with a machete and a 1911 on Guadalcanal. His weapons did not defeat the Japanese, one angry Marine did. This is true of almost all of these stories. It is not the weapon, but the man. Oh, yeah, Sergeant Basilone got the Medal of Honor. He was killed later on Iwo Jima.

With that being said, a handgun is a compromise weapon. It is small enough to keep with you and keep you alive so you can escape. As such, the power is limited. Keeping that in mind, throw the biggest rock you can. The 9mm is adequate, but the 45 is a better choice.

And a 1911 is the best choice of all because the cool factor is way up. :D

[1911Tuner]

Johnny,

While I heartily agree with you that that is the case on many occasions, neither Platt nor Matix had drugs or alcohol in their system.

Matix was 5'11", 180lbs. and Platt was 5' 10", 210lbs. Neither appear to be heavily muscled in the morgue photos, both were referred to as being well-developed and well nourished. As badly as Platt was shot to pieces, he seems to have been running on pure adrenalin & the will to fight.

No argument there, mah fren. The will is a major factor in any encounter.
Remember...It ain't the size of the dog in the fight. It's the size of the fight in the dog. ;)

Imagine what those two coulda done if they HAD been on numbing drugs...Whew!

[OD*]

If I remember, that fight was ended by a shot from a short barrel .38 special.

At contact range.

Platt lived long enough for EMTs to start treatment.

[OD*]

No argument there, mah fren. The will is a major factor in any encounter.
Remember...It ain't the size of the dog in the fight. It's the size of the fight in the dog. ;)

Imagine what those two coulda done if they HAD been on numbing drugs...Whew!

Excellent points amigo!

I didn't mean to slight the Officers, I also meant to say in my earlier post the Agents also showed a hell of a will to fight!

[littledoc]

Yep. A flanking maneuver. Tactics.

[Blasterboy]

Platt was what we call a "dedicated opponent"...he was not going back to jail and was definitely NOT going to stop fighting..!!

[garrettwc]

OD, I don't recall that one from my files. Is it available on the 'net. I like to give it a look.

Littledoc touched on what I meant, so I will elaborate some more. Since I don't have the file in front of me to recall the agents names, I will refer to them by the generic term "agent" in my comments.

Agent[s] knew they were searching for heavily armed BGs who were dangerous, yet they were mostly armed with handguns.

Agent placed his handgun on the seat under his leg and lost it during the impact of the vehicles.

Agent who was near sighted lost his glasses in the fight. In all accounts I have heard this took him out of the fight. Why? My theory [FWIW] is that he had not trained to get hits without glasses.

Agent[s] did not have backup guns. Can't say this was the case for all, but for most.

There are other examples in the various analyses I have read as well but this should make the point.

While I agree the Silvertip ammo failed, and that Platt and Mattix were determined to fight on, the tactics and training bear some of the weight. It wasn't one thing in particular, but a number of things that came together on that day to bring out the results we saw.
If I remember, that fight was ended by a shot from a short barrel .38 special.
Maximum use of the tools at hand, determination to win the fight. Again, it was the man holding the .38 snub and not the ammo by itself.

[OD*]

Yep. A flanking maneuver. Tactics.
Actually, Special Agent Mireles waded straight into them, they were seated sideways in Grogan & Dove's Buick.

[OD*]

garrettwc,

The book can be found here.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm
ordering info at the bottom

FWIW, they did have long guns available, but as Doc, said, it went down in the blink of an eye. We (myself included) can second guess the Agents all we want, without without fear of bullets zipping past our easy chairs.

[Saskia Quelle]

Quick question: am I right in saying that your average FBI agent (except HRT and other specialist teams) are data analysts/computer people first and firearm people when they have to?

[Tom]

OD, I was just reading that link and was about to post it here - and saw you had beaten me to the punch.

In reviewing Dr. Anderson's report based on the forensic evidence, it is clear the entire situation must have been a Charlie Foxtrot when it was all going down. The whole thing was over in what, 5 minutes? Maybe less?

[MDaughen]

at the time of this incident the FBI and US Secret Service issues S&W model 13 military and police revolvers in 3 or 4 inch heavy barrels, they could be had with either the k frame "square" or round butt.

(I was active duty military and had one as a personal weapon since 1982. Mine was a 4" square with pachmayer gripper- great little wheel gun too...)


I've never gotten over the fact that they were using +P, even though the old k frames were not supposed to be used extensively with "heavy" .357 loads (per S&W literature of the time) I used 158 gr jhp and 125 gr jhp a lot...

[JLH3]

It was my understanding that the agents had two long guns availible and neither one was at the scene of the gunfight when the BG's car was PIT'ed in the first place.

When the fight went down, the FBI crouched behind their cars and fired over them. That is why 2 of them recieved injuries to the hands and forearms. At that point one of the BG's went around the cars and used enflidading fire on them. After that he returned to the car and was shot at close range as he tried to leave. The agent that shoot him was using his off hand because of wounds in the other arm.

[littledoc]

Actually, Special Agent Mireles waded straight into them, they were seated sideways in Grogan & Dove's Buick.

Oops, my bust. The last time I looked at this case was when the FBI dropped the 10mm.

Has it been that long? I guess my kids are right, I'm getting old.

[OD*]

the agents had two long guns availible and neither one was at the scene of the gunfight

SA Mireles also used his 870 on Platt, 5 rounds of 00 buck fired.

[OD*]

Quick question: am I right in saying that your average FBI agent (except HRT and other specialist teams) are data analysts/computer people first and firearm people when they have to?
Grogan & Dove were both SWAT qualified. (5 of the 14 agents were)

[JLH3]

SA Mireles also used his 870 on Platt, 5 rounds of 00 buck fired.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. It is my understanding that there were two more agents who were armed with AR15/M16's in the area who were to be involved in the stop. However, the agents were afriad that Matix and Platt were going to head into a more residential area and they didn't want to conduct the stop there. So they rammed Matix's car without waiting for the more heavily armed back-up.

This is information I got more than 10 years ago from a friend of my father's who worked for DEA at the time. So if my memory is a little off, I apologize. However I believe that to be the gist of what happened.

[OD*]

OD, I was just reading that link and was about to post it here - and saw you had beaten me to the punch.

In reviewing Dr. Anderson's report based on the forensic evidence, it is clear the entire situation must have been a Charlie Foxtrot when it was all going down. The whole thing was over in what, 5 minutes? Maybe less?
Tom,

I will have to check, I don't recall exactly? I know it was a short time, in relation to what went down. I'm sure it seemed like an eternity to those involved. (the analysis states the firefight lasted over four minutes, I assume that means five or under?)

[OD*]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. It is my understanding that there were two more agents who were armed with AR15/M16's in the area who were to be involved in the stop. However, the agents were afriad that Matix and Platt were going to head into a more residential area and they didn't want to conduct the stop there. So they rammed Matix's car without waiting for the more heavily armed back-up.

This is information I got more than 10 years ago from a friend of my father's who worked for DEA at the time. So if my memory is a little off, I apologize. However I believe that to be the gist of what happened.
Something like that, I was thinking they were MP5s, but I could be wrong too.

[OD*]

The agent that shoot him was using his off hand because of wounds in the other arm.

I believe SA Mireles was hit in the left forearm as he held the 870 at port-arms and was right handed.

[DHC]

Quick question: am I right in saying that your average FBI agent (except HRT and other specialist teams) are data analysts/computer people first and firearm people when they have to?
I have a good friend who was a cop and joined the FBI. In his academy class, there were only a couple guys who were prior service military or cops. The rest were either off the street recruits or lawyers/accountants/computer geeks. Look at former Director Freeh. He was an FBI agent, lawyer, judge, then head of the Bureau. No military or LEO background prior to that.

You have to realize that the FBI's primary focus has been white collar crime. They do cover armed robbery, kidnappings, etc. but leave the majority of the "dirty work" for the locals.

My friend disliked the work so much he's now a cop again... He spent too much time behind a desk as a fed... (when he got out too much, like he preferred to do, his supervisor would rein him in...)

[DHC]

This is going to sound a bit silly, but here goes...

I have been watching a lot of weird war films and documentaries on war on Discovery over the xmas period (as you do... it's better than watching Dr Dolittle for the 60th time!) and have also sunk my teeth into a few books from ex-army personnel. I have noticed one common thing with reference to the author/actor portraying a kill with the Colt...

They all describe firing one shot and the BG goes down straight away. I know people are going to say "hollywood magic!!!" but I do remember reading a report from WWII about an American GI shooting 6 Japs and killing them with his 1911, 5 of them were with one shot, the last took two I believe.

Is a shoot-once method of shooting still practiced; was it ever practiced at all or is this just imaginary thinking or skilled shooting? I mean, do people shoot the BG once, then shoot him again if he hasn't gone down?

I ask this question because the above seems to run in contary to how I, and nearly everybody else I speek to, have been trained. I was always taught to double tap to the COM of the BG.

This is going to sound stupid, but did such one shot stops happen and were they common place? If so, would it be purdent (and saving on ammo!) to only plug a BG once then again if necessary?

Given that people do regard the .45 calibre to be a good stopper, is there any truth to this or is it some author's artistic licence?
I just skimmed this thread and need to head out but wanted to say this...

I was taught that if there are multiple assailants with guns, you don't have time to double-tap/failure drill each one. It's "boarding house rules." Each gets one serving. Any still standing get seconds...

[Moose63845]

Ok I'll add a couple more things here, somone asked a couple pages back about using a pepper spray/mace/oc or atleast carrying it. This can be good since you can say you tried something after retreating and before using your gun which LEO's call escalation of force and is required before deadly if possible. However there are people that are genetically uneffected by sprays and you are just loosing time spraying them, however spray is only good for none deadly force altercations were you don't need to use your gun.

As far as time goes almost every incounter where gun fire is exchanged lasts less than 3 minutes, conflicts lasting longer than that are the exception. Officers also tend to not know how many rounds they fire and empty a magazine or 2 during the encounter even in that time limit. Not all confrontations are like this but a lot of them are, usually the ones you hear about there are though. The ones you don't hear about there are only a handfull of shots fired and they end in a matter of seconds, though it seems much longer than that.

As far as ballistics goes if I remember correctly in the miami shootout didn't the jacket stop some rounds? or was that a different shootout I am thinking of? I am reminded of comedian Ron White whenever people bring up shootouts like this though, he has a few bits about police shootouts that are very interesting however as was said before when shots are flying past you, you forget a lot and don't think clearly.

[Deacon Aegis]

LOL I call my son Tater Tot...

Gotta love Ron White. ;)

[littledoc]

Ironically, Ron White is on the Comedy Channel as I read this....

[garrettwc]

OD, thanks for the link.

Roger Wilco on the Monday morning quarterbacking. My purpose is not to second guess the guys taking fire. Only to analyze what went right, what went wrong, and what improvements I can make to my own repertoire.

[MDaughen]

practice head shots....practice, practice, practice

and then pray you never have to

[OD*]

garrettwc,

You're welcome sir, and I understand completely.

I do highly recommend Dr. Anderson's book, it does show that the FBI Agent's preformed admirably and their shooting skills were remarkable given the circumstances.
I had long believed the shootout was a near cluster ... well, you get the idea, but previous accounts were not nearly as detailed as Dr. Anderson's work.

[Hawkmoon]

I am arriving at this discussion a couplke of days late, and because I'm using a pay-as-you-go cyber café at the moent, I can't read the entire thread. Sp please forgive me if I cover info already discussed.

Not too many years ago, many (peraps most) American police departments at all levels (municipal, state and Federal) moved away from revolvers and adopted 9mm semi-auo pistols as their duty weapons. The best justification I can come up with is that they were seduced by the siren song of huge magazine capacities.

Fast forward a few years, and now we see agencies abandoning the 9mm platform in droves. Some are going to .40 S&W, some are going to .45 ACP, and a few are going to .357 SIG. All are looking for more stopping power, and all cite the inadequacy of the 9mm to reliably stop threats.

In the U.S. we are seeing more and more bad guys who are drugged up, and or jacked up on steroids, who just laugh when stung by a 9mm round. Of course, there are those who say "shot placement is paramount," and they are correct. A well-placed 9mm round (say to the cranium) will probably end any BG's day. But one 9mm to COM probably will not stop a big man who is high on amphetamines. In fact, one .45 probably won't either ... but the .45 has a better chance than the 9mm.

[Saskia Quelle]

That all makes sense to me, Hawkmoon :)

In your opinion, would you consider the 9mm to be inadequate?

[Tom]

In my opinion, not inadequate, but less adequate. Ideally, I'd love a gun that could shoot a cinder block at 900fps at a bad guy, or even a pocket 16-inch Naval gun and just dump a Volkswagen on the guy. But since neither of these are convenient (it's tough to put an entire battleship in one's waistband), we have to compromise power for size. And as Hawkmoon alluded to, there was a sudden rush of law enforcement and paramilitary groups to adopt the 9mm back in the 1980's, and now we're seeing a slow trickle of these same departments and groups going towards calibers with more punch. There has to be a reason.

Still, a well-placed 9mm to the skull or heart can, and most likely will, stop a bad guy in his tracks. Even a .22LR can have those effects. But since most of us (law enforcement included) do not train enough to guarantee that all our shots hit exactly where we intend, especially under circumstances and stress conditions that make accuracy challenging, what would YOU want to have in your gun?

[Deacon Aegis]

IMHO, every situation has its own unique circumstances where a one size fits all approach is not going to deliver the most efficient force requirements desired. That makes attempting to deliver a single "best" choice difficult. Although the .45 is proven through multiple combat arenas, decades of law enforcement use, and inumerous times in the hands of armed, law-abiding citizens, the .40 caliber shows promise to potentially yield equal well-rounded balistic and logistic characteristics. Should we adopt a more europian approach, placing submachine guns n the hands of casual law enforcement practices would have entered a whole different equation into the situation outlined earler in the thread. Had each of those agents been equiped with a MAC-10 or MP5K, that gunfight would probably have had a much different outcome. Issues of collateral damage, a litigous society, and conflicts arising from the further and further development of a police-state mentality, such firepower will most likely remain the province of special tactics units.

That said, and barring the ability to drop a battleship on one's waistband, instead of the 16 inch guns, I think I'd prefer a Phalanx AA/AM point defense battery.

And now for something completely politically incorrect: "It's an 88 Magnum... Shoots through schools..." Danny Vermin - Johnny Dangerously :D

[Tom]

That said, and barring the ability to drop a battleship on one's waistband, instead of the 16 inch guns, I think I'd prefer a Phalanx AA/AM point defense battery.


Ah, yes, the CIWS, better known as "Sea Whiz" or "R2-D2". :D Knew several GM's and FT's who worked on that system. They wouldn't let us ET's play with their gear, though.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/ciws-cg73-0004.jpg

I just hate carrying the depleted uranium shells in my pockets. They get heavy after a while. ;)

And now for something completely politically incorrect: "It's an 88 Magnum... Shoots through schools..." Danny Vermin - Johnny Dangerously

LOL Now there's a movie I haven't heard of or seen in years. Deacon, you need to post this line in the "Best Movie Lines" thread.

[Saskia Quelle]

"Although the .45 is proven through multiple combat arenas"

I would think the 9mm calibre has just such track record in warfare.

Anyway, calibre aside, I'm on the lookout for a Smith and Wesson Model 29 in .44 magnum.

[DHC]

I am arriving at this discussion a couplke of days late, and because I'm using a pay-as-you-go cyber café at the moent, I can't read the entire thread. Sp please forgive me if I cover info already discussed.

Not too many years ago, many (peraps most) American police departments at all levels (municipal, state and Federal) moved away from revolvers and adopted 9mm semi-auo pistols as their duty weapons. The best justification I can come up with is that they were seduced by the siren song of huge magazine capacities.

Fast forward a few years, and now we see agencies abandoning the 9mm platform in droves. Some are going to .40 S&W, some are going to .45 ACP, and a few are going to .357 SIG. All are looking for more stopping power, and all cite the inadequacy of the 9mm to reliably stop threats.

In the U.S. we are seeing more and more bad guys who are drugged up, and or jacked up on steroids, who just laugh when stung by a 9mm round. Of course, there are those who say "shot placement is paramount," and they are correct. A well-placed 9mm round (say to the cranium) will probably end any BG's day. But one 9mm to COM probably will not stop a big man who is high on amphetamines. In fact, one .45 probably won't either ... but the .45 has a better chance than the 9mm.
A good caveat to that comes from a good cop I know who always preaches to carry the biggest round you can shoot accurately, quickly. (How does that phrase go? "Shoot fast, slowly.")

[MDaughen]

I always heard that you should carry the biggest caliber that you could comfortably fire, whatever that might be, if it is a .380 then that is what you should use, if it is .50 AE then let me know so I can get out o' the way .... lol

[garrettwc]

I read a discussion the other day between two trainers that pretty much sums it up. "Ammo and guns are at most 10% of the solution. Select a combo that is reliable and that you shoot well. Then spend your time working on the other 90%"

[FXdiz]

I was taught that if there are multiple assailants with guns, you don't have time to double-tap/failure drill each one. It's "boarding house rules." Each gets one serving. Any still standing get seconds...

DHC, I like that ... mind if I use it?

To all ... I'll take a .45 over a 9 mil any day. I used both while in the Navy and that 45 makes one heck of a bigger hole than the 9mm.

[POPO22]

DHC,....agreed, if more than one assailant, each gets one helping. If still hungry, give them seconds, or thirds. LOL

[JLH3]

(How does that phrase go? "Shoot fast, slowly.")

I always liked, "Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.".

[MontanaMike]

I have several relatives who are LEO or retired LEO, including my youngest son who is a deputy sheriff. He and I are both M1911 fans of the first order. However, his experience in law enforcement has taught him that a 7-round M1911 may be inadequate in certain types of tactical situations, despite its reputation for "stopping power".

One deficiency is an inadequate number of rounds, and I am not talking spray and pray here, just not enough rounds for multiple targets and backing up his team members. The second deficiency is its inability to pentrate through vehicles. He and his department have found the Glock in 40 S&W to be the weapon of their choice because of the latter two considerations, even though double stack 45's are available.

He carries a Mil Spec SA M1911 in the front of his tactical vest for one of his backups, particularly when carrying an A4 as primary weapon, as he can reach the 1911 in the front of his vest in most positions if close quarters block the A4. When he shoots for score in timed tactical training, he is required to use the Glock in 40 S&W. After qualifications are over, he generally makes a few bucks shooting for score again with the SA M1911, shooting perfect scores on a regular basis despite the need to change magazines more often than with the Glock. The old timers on the force bet on him (most are 1911 fans), the young guys raised and trained on Glocks bet against him and the 1911. He has not lost yet. In my limited experience with Glocks, the 40 S&W in a Glock is less accurate than a tuned.45, but is more than adequately accurate for LEO work, self defense, or small game at reasonable distances. With a bit of tuning, the .45 is supurebly accurate in the tactical situations.

The comments about the .45 delivering most or all of its energy to a target are right on point. I have not found that it causes much collateral hydraulic shock or broad tissue damage in small game up to and including deer, at least not in the sense of the hydraulic shock and damage caused by a hunting rifle bullet. The velocity of the .45 is simply not adequate for that, but the new hollowpoints developed over the past 10 years or so certainly do a lot of damage. No matter. The bigger and blunter the object, the bigger the hole. The bigger the hole, the more the damage to things and the .45 drills a significantly bigger blood channel than the 9mm and generally hits the target harder at close ranges.

The 45 and the 9mm are both tools. Any tool must be used properly. Proper bullet placement is a necessary requirement no matter what caliber you shoot. Over the years, I have dropped deer with everything from a 22 Longrifle (in a Ruger pistol at about 10 feet) to a 300 Win. I don't recommend either of those extremes for deer, but they will get the job done if used properly.

A few years ago, one of my sons was working on an attempt to protect above ground fuel tanks in Ecuador with a fabric similar to Kevlar. The idea did not work but we did do some interesting experiments one day at the farm. Unfortunately, I did not record the data with regards to the number of layers of the fabric, so have to rely on memory. We wanted to find out how many layers it took to stop a 45 versus a 40 S&W. We did not have a 9mm that day, but did have a .223 rifle and a .475 Linebaugh pistol.

We would fold the wonder fabric into multiple layers about 6"x6" square and nail them to a piece of 1/2" high density particle board about 4"x6", lean it against a barbed wire fence, and then shoot at it from about 50 feet.

As I recall, it only took about 4 layers of the fabric to prevent the .45 ACP from penetrating the board. It took 16 layers to stop the 40 S&W, but the 40 S&W did not try to knock the board over whereas the 45 ACP knocked the dickens out of the board despite not penetrating through it.

We never did find enough layers to stop the .223. The .475 Linebaugh shooting 405 grain jacketed flat lead nose bullets at about 1360 feet per second penetrated through up to 24 layers of the fabric. At that point we increased to 48 layers of frabric and the Linebaugh round did not pass through the fabric. It simply punched a big hole through the high density partical board, taking all the fabric with it.

The point is, I think the 45 ACP acts in a comparable manner to the Linebaugh, just on a smaller scale, in that it may not penetrate as far as a smaller caliber, faster bullet, but it simply delivers one heck of a blow to the target as well as cutting a big wound channel until it stops in the target.

I carry an M1911. I own a Browning Hi-Power and would not hesitate to use it for self defense, but I favor the 45 because my personal experience has shown me it is generally more effective than the 9mm. If all I could get was a 9 mm, I would use it and practice using it well, but if I have a choice, I will always pick a cartridge with a heavier and larger caliber bullet over a faster smaller caliber bullet when shooting at big animals with either a rifle or a pistol. I went through my high-velocity period when I was young. My 257 Weatherby collects dust nowdays unless I am shooting at prairie dogs at 500 yards but I use a 338 Win a lot on elk at reasonable ranges and move to a 300 Win only when I plan to hunt open country. Historically, the bigger, slower, heavier and tougher 338 caliber bullets have been better game stoppers for me than the smaller 30 cals, because they are less likely to break up or go astray in the wound channel. I think the same can be said of the 45 versus the 9 mm. This gap in performance has been steadily closing between 338 and 30 cal as better premium bullets become available, and technology is improving both the 45 and the 9 mm. However, I personally would pick a 40 S&W over a 9mm any day for shooting at big animals, if I could not use the 45 ACP or a larger pistol cartridge. I have shot a few mule deer with the .44 Mag in a 7-1/2 barrel S&W and hard cast bullets, but again, a 45 Colt with a heavy bullet and a hot load in a Ruger pistol may be more effective. I have never asked a deer if it could tell the difference.

I am starting to think that the 40 S&W may be as good as the 45 ACP with proper bullets (I know, I know, sacrilege!), but still do not have enough experience with it on small to medium game to reach a conclusion. My wife tends to hog the 40 S&W when we shoot, so the only way I am going to get much practical experience with it is to take it on a long walk while hunting. I have not had much time for hunting the past few years, so my opinion about the 40 S&W is not complete. My M1911-loving son, the LEO, has developed quite a respect for the 40 S&W and shuns the 9 mm for any serious work.

IMO, the 9 mm is fun to shoot for plinking and target practice and can be quite accurate. Another thing in its favor, particularly for shooters located outside the United States, is availability of ammo. Likewise, the ammo is cheap to shoot in the US. These are factors in favor of 9 mm if you want to shoot for sport. If you are interested in self defense, IMHO the 9 mm may not be as effective as the 45 ACP although one can find exceptions to about everything.

One thing I notice about the 40 S&W is the sharp recoil in light guns like the Glock. You don't notice it at first but it is accumlative over a lot of rounds. In my wife's 96 Berretta is is not very noticable, as the Berretta is much heavier than the Glock. I find I can shoot a lot more 45 ACP through a full sized 1911 on the range without bad effects to me than 40 S&W in a Glock. The 9 mm does not provide much recoil damage, even in the light guns. This might be a consideration for some people, if they are shooting for sport.

In any case, whatever cartridge and gun you pick, you have to use it well. We have a lot of choices these days, but buying technology will not make you an effective shooter (IMHO). You have to learn to use whatever cartridge and pistol you select and you may select them based on how you intend to use them, i.e., their purpose. Plus it is fun to experient with different guns. But if you are thinking self defense, you should not be in the experimental mode.

Sorry about writing a book, but hope this some of these experiences may add more things to think about for those making a choice on a personal pistol.

[Tom]

No apologies necessary, Mike. That was a very informative post, and I thank you for your time and efforts in putting it here.

[Moose63845]

Ditto on the post Mike very informative. I knew what the results were going to be on the .45 v. 40 battle though before you posted them. The .40 was based off the 10mm which was designed to penetrate and was the ONLY round to get 100% on the FBI's tests. And the 10mm has been known in my experiances to stop black bears, including record size ones. I'll let ya know what grain etc. was used after I talk to my friend that did this next week. But the heavy fast loads of the .40 and 10mm have been known to stop deer, etc. I have heard of several deers put down by LEO's using their duty .40's so they can and do work well. But again it all comes down to shot placement, which is why I hate carrying my 9mm for work. It does not hit what I'm aiming at, and needs work, where my .45 1911 and even my Glock 10mm are much more accurate.

[horse 91-A1]

Mike, I'm finding the .45auto penetrating better than the .40; but I used higher velocity handloads in the .45 compared to 155gr Federal Hi-Shok ammo that's issued to a large federal LE agency.

On automobile sheet metal I found 230gr XTPs at 865fps penetrated the same two layers of auto metal as the .40 did, but the XTP had a tendency to lose its jacket. I recovered a Hi-Shok round after it bounced off a third auto metal barrier and it measured .606".

Developing loads using Win 230gr notched JHP and Remington 230gr GS at 965-1006fps, 200gr Gold Dot approximately 1040+fps and 185gr GS over 1100fps gave 1/2" plus four layer penetration, something the .40 issue ammo couldn't achieve. I've since loaded up some 155gr Gold Dots that are about 140fps faster than the Hi-Shok issue ammo from a four inch barrel Steyr and will do some more barrier testing.

Adios,
Bob

For home defense, I'm thinking 210gr Silvertips in .44mag should be about as close to one shot take downs as possible. Silvertips open very fast and I'm thing velocity/mass should punch all the way through. :)

[JLH3]

For home defense, I'm thinking 210gr Silvertips in .44mag should be about as close to one shot take downs as possible. Silvertips open very fast and I'm thing velocity/mass should punch all the way through. :)

And, if you should happen to miss, you'll set the bad guy on fire with the muzzle flash.

:D

[horse 91-A1]

And, if you should happen to miss, you'll set the bad guy on fire with the muzzle flash.

Also known as lightning by Olin or Hodgdon and if hit the BG is torched. :) Actually, I think my .40S&W is the flash champ because the chrono screens have to set the maximum 15ft away to get good readings. :)

Adios,
Bob

[Hawkmoon]

Quick question: am I right in saying that your average FBI agent (except HRT and other specialist teams) are data analysts/computer people first and firearm people when they have to?
Nope.

A LOT of FBI agents are lawyers. They go into the agency after graduating from law school.

Honest.

I've known a few FBI agents on a personal basis over the span of my life. Not a lot -- can count 'em on the digits of one hand so not a "statistically valid" sampling ... but none were "gun people."

[Hawkmoon]

That all makes sense to me, Hawkmoon :)

In your opinion, would you consider the 9mm to be inadequate?
Inadequate for what?

For a duty weapon? Yes, I think it's inadequate ... but the United States Army disagrees with me. For personal carry? I prefer the .45, but my summer "in the pocket" pistol is a Colt Pony in .380 ACP. Any gun is better than no gun.

[Moose63845]

Also known as lighting by Olin or Hodgdon and if hit the BG is torched. :) Actually, I think my .40S&W is the flash champ because the chrono screens have to set the maximum 15ft away to get good readings. :)

Adios,
Bob
.357 sig has more, a DuPage County Sheriff carried one of the compact or sub compact Glocks in .357 sig. When he qualified with it the range officer had him fire a few rounds in the dark after qualifying to see the flame, it was almost touching the target.

[horse 91-A1]

On the FBI question, they are a pretty diverse group ranging from counter-terrorism/bombing investigations/SWAT to gaining computer access. I've also heard of lawyers becoming agents and if memory serves me correctly, either during the late 70s/80s there was a hiring push for CPAs and business types to investigate white collar crime. I expect there are also a number of computer analysts, but whether or not they are agents, I don't know.

Off the subject a bit, but there was an agent by the name of Charlie Shepherd who shot clay pigeons tossed in the air with his snubby .38spcl. :) The Bureau apparently had/has some good shooters too. :D

Adios,
Bob

[MontanaMike]

Bob,

That is very interesting information about your experience with various 45 loads (I would copy it here if I could remember how to put a copy of your message in this reply).

I will pass it on to my son as we both reload; however, I believe he is required to carry only authorized factory loads when on duty due to the shenanigans of the lawyers when he testifies in court.

We shot the wonder fabric with 230 gr hard ball, most likely Winchester white box, as I recall. The recovered bullets were also quite well expanded in the front fourth. I wish I had thought to mike them or even write it all down at the time. I have been building a house (slowly) for the past two years so my handloading experiments have taken backseat temporarily.

Mike

[MontanaMike]

Moose63845,

Thanks for the comments about the 10mm. I am somewhat familiar with that background due to being a dedicated Guns & Ammo subscriber. Also, my brotherinlaw bought a 10 mm when they first came out. I think he still has it. My only experience with it was to shoot a few magazines through it. It was a nice pistol. He was on the Sheriff' posse at the time and was training several of the members how to shoot pistols. They were entry level shooters without any pistol experience and thought the Gold Cup had a lot of recoil shooting hard ball. He found that they simply could not learn to shoot the 10mm effectively as they were intimidated by it. I don't know, but I wonder if that was a factor in law enforcement not picking up on it. I suspect it may have had too much penetration for some law enforcement work, at least in the eyes of the courts, but should have been a good choice for military applications.

Your comments about putting down deer are also informative. I don't want to leave the wrong impression here, as I do not recommend deer hunting with a pistol in less than a 45 Colt or 44 Rem with heavy loads or larger, but just the same as LEO putting down a deer due to necessity, I have had some experiences over the years due to circumstances. Good luck with your 9mm service weapon, but I will relate that the same brotherinlaw mentioned above was packing one of the wondernines in the early 80s and dropped a whitetail doe at about 25 feet with two quick shots to the head. Again, it was a target of opportunity, with the rifle sitting in the truck a 100 yards away. He is a crack shot who can hit aerial targets consistently with 38s in an L-frame S&W. Again, the tool is generally up to the task if the guy who is using it is....Its just that we all like better tools.

Speaking of muzzle flash, somewhere down in the safe is a 61/2 inch barrel Ruger Blackhawk with a 38 caliber barrel (originally chambered for 357 mag) and a 44 mag cylinder. Back in the 1980's, a fellow in California made plastic sleeves so we could neck down 44 mag brass and shoot 38 caliber bullets without the cartridge backing up so hard against the backing plate that the cylinder would not turn as was the problem with the Bains and Davis. This cartridge was called the 357/44 Bobcat Magnum and with 22 grains of W296 behind a 158 gr JHP, the muzzle flash was absolutely spectacular, not to mention unnerving, as was the burning powder that would spray anyone standing within four feet on either side of the cylinder. I had to quit shooting it, at least with those types of loads due to top strap cutting. It is an interesting gun as I can shoot it with cylinders for 38/357, 9mm, or the Bobcat Magnum.

[Moose63845]

Moose63845,

Thanks for the comments about the 10mm. I am somewhat familiar with that background due to being a dedicated Guns & Ammo subscriber. Also, my brotherinlaw bought a 10 mm when they first came out. I think he still has it. My only experience with it was to shoot a few magazines through it. It was a nice pistol. He was on the Sheriff' posse at the time and was training several of the members how to shoot pistols. They were entry level shooters without any pistol experience and thought the Gold Cup had a lot of recoil shooting hard ball. He found that they simply could not learn to shoot the 10mm effectively as they were intimidated by it. I don't know, but I wonder if that was a factor in law enforcement not picking up on it. I suspect it may have had too much penetration for some law enforcement work, at least in the eyes of the courts, but should have been a good choice for military applications.

Your comments about putting down deer are also informative. I don't want to leave the wrong impression here, as I do not recommend deer hunting with a pistol in less than a 45 Colt or 44 Rem with heavy loads or larger, but just the same as LEO putting down a deer due to necessity, I have had some experiences over the years due to circumstances. Good luck with your 9mm service weapon, but I will relate that the same brotherinlaw mentioned above was packing one of the wondernines in the early 80s and dropped a whitetail doe at about 25 feet with two quick shots to the head. Again, it was a target of opportunity, with the rifle sitting in the truck a 100 yards away. He is a crack shot who can hit aerial targets consistently with 38s in an L-frame S&W. Again, the tool is generally up to the task if the guy who is using it is....Its just that we all like better tools.

Speaking of muzzle flash, somewhere down in the safe is a 61/2 inch barrel Ruger Blackhawk with a 38 caliber barrel (originally chambered for 357 mag) and a 44 mag cylinder. Back in the 1980's, a fellow in California made plastic sleeves so we could neck down 44 mag brass and shoot 38 caliber bullets without the cartridge backing up so hard against the backing plate that the cylinder would not turn as was the problem with the Bains and Davis. This cartridge was called the 357/44 Bobcat Magnum and with 22 grains of W296 behind a 158 gr JHP, the muzzle flash was absolutely spectacular, not to mention unnerving, as was the burning powder that would spray anyone standing within four feet on either side of the cylinder. I had to quit shooting it, at least with those types of loads due to top strap cutting. It is an interesting gun as I can shoot it with cylinders for 38/357, 9mm, or the Bobcat Magnum.
That bobcat magnum thing sounds really cool. And you hit on the major downfalls of the 10mm, it can overpenatrate depending on round and shot placement as a 9mm can and it kicks like a mule so the FBI got rid of it and other people go off what the FBI does so they got rid of it too. I wish that LE agencies would start their officers off with .22lr so that they get used to shooting before making them qualify with a their duty gun. It's not the 9mm that I don't like so much as the gun it is coming out of. I've got HST 147 gr rounds so I'm confident in it's stopping ability, but the atleast 5" group at 25-50 feet isn't as tight as I'd like but I'm gonna do some work on it.

[chaplain]

To get back on topic...

The Miami shootout wasn't an ammo failure, the 9mm silvertips did what they were designed to do. It wasn't tactics, either. The scene escalated so fast there wasn't time to develop any. Sometime you are handed a dung sandwich and you have to eat it. If I remember, that fight was ended by a shot from a short barrel .38 special. The lesson learned is if you are anticipating a fight, bring real firepower.

As I recall one of the main problems there was that one of the agents lost his glasses getting out of the car, and was nearly blind without them. Also, they had their shotguns either in the backseat in a case, or in the trunk, I forget which. Also I do remember (I saw the film at the FBI Academy about 1 1/2 years ago) that one of the agents who was wounded kept getting shots off with his 12 guage pump. (He had to take a long time between shots cause he only had one good arm, having taken a serious hit.) He hit the one suspect who was in a car, several times with the shotgun, but the suspect kept firing back. I don't remember if they had body armor on or not. Does anyone have any facts, mine are a bit rusty.

[OD*]

Special Agent Mireles used his 870 on Platt, 5 rounds of 00 buck fired. He hit him in the feet as he was standing outside the car, he shot them inside the car with his revolver after trying to do so with the shotgun. Platt & Matix did not have body armor, the 9mm ammo did fail for lack of penetration.

[littledoc]

I wouldn't classify that as an ammunition failure, but a poor choice of ammunition. I know it's just semantics, but the Silvertip was designed to open very rapidly and not over penetrate fore to aft in a shooting. This it did, even though it was not the desired effect. But, until the studies from this and similar shootings were promulgated, we didn't know just how much of a compromise rapidly expanding bullets really were. Then we tried to turn it into a semi auto .38 special with the 147 gr loadings. They often times failed to expand (failure), creating a whole new list of problems. Thankfully, technology has gotten quite a bit better since then, but the 9mm is being left behind more and more for ammo whose caliber begins with a four.

I had this same discussion with a friend over Silvertip rifle ammo. He took a "Texas heart shot" at modest range with a .30-30 Silvertip at a monster whitetail. The bullet did exactly as advertised. It opened quickly travelled through the abdomen and stopped in the diaphram, just before the chest cavity. If it were designed to open a little slower, I'm sure it would have been a quick harvest. We were looking for that deer for quite a while.

Interestingly, I have seen all kinds of handgun bullets "fail." The most memorable was a guy trying to rob a stop and cop. He was shot 3 times in the back with .40S&W ball. Nice group, about 2 inches. No exits. He had muzzle burns on his clothes. We got an X-ray. Sure enough, three clearly visible .40 FMJ rounds disbursed throughout his chest. They have an unmistakable profile. We were all getting prepped and having a good time when someone noticed he had zero breathing problems. We found the three bullets under the skin of his back. You could grab them with your fingers. They penetrated the skin, hit the muscle and moved all over his back. They followed the surgical plane between the skin and muscle, all in different directions. That was one lucky SOB. I sure hope he found religion.

That, I believe was ammo failure. The bullets did not do as advertised. The same as with the 5.56 ammo being issued today. Out of the short barreled M4 carbines, they are not getting up enough speed to upset in tissue the way they are supposed to.

We need to stop trying to make small bullets perform big. It never seems to work as advertised.

[MontanaMike]

littledoc,

Do you know what range the three .40S&W rounds were fired from when they did not give good penetration? The 2-inch group implies they were not fired from a great distance.

Years ago, I used a lot of Silvertips in 30/06 for deer and elk. They weren't too bad but not up to the standards of the Noslers of that day. The Silvertips were good on deer, but if fired into an elk at a quartering angle like your friend's shot with the 30/30 into a deer, probably would not penetrate clear through the body. We were always careful not to take any quartering shots with any .30 caliber rifles. The .338 would work ok on quartering shots.

Your conclusion that a small bullet cannot do a large bullet's job, velocity not withstanding, is exactly right in my experience. Therefore, I expect the .45 ACP, at reasonable range, to be a very good stopper compared to some smaller calibers with higher velocity.

I have been flirting with the .40S&W and so far have been favorably impressed, so was very interested in your experience with the lack of penetration. I wonder if you have any opinions about what contributed to the lack of penetration? I would have expected FMJ bullets to do better. Of course, in hunting big game with rifles, I have had bullets go in all sorts of unexpected directions after they got inside the beast. However, these experiences were usually at ranges where bullet velocity was dropping off.

The most extreme example of this was an elk shot straight on in the chest at a measured (on a topo map) 620 yards with a 30/06, 180 gr Nosler SP, and 57 grains of IMR 4350. In retrospect this was dumb, but my brother-in-law and I had been shooting silhouettes all summer, so estimating the range and taking the shot was not a problem. The bullet hit the elk in the center of the chest and travelled around under the hide to stop between the right front shoulder and the ribs. The elk then turned sideways, and another shot through the lungs put it down. This was simply too far to shoot an elk with a 30/06, despite my ability to deliver the bullet on target. The recovered bullet was unmarked except for rifling marks and the lead spire point was unexpanded and still on the bullet. The round through the lungs, broadside at over 600 yards, went clear through the elk and was not recovered (what does this say about expansion at that range and velocity???? - none!).

That is why I wonder what distance the three rounds of .40S&W FMJ were fired from when they did not penetrate. Does this suggest that many if not most pistol rounds may not give good penetration at pistol velocities, due to taking off at different directions once in a body, unless you are really close when you fire?

Mike

[OD*]

Thanks Doc, that's interesting.
A couple things though, Silvertip rifle bullets are completely different than the handgun versions, they were introduced in 1939 and have a stellar record for the most part. I agree that the SS-109 isn't working out of the M4, the M193 out of the 20" carbines seem to work much better.

[littledoc]

Winchester Silvertip rifle bullets are very good, but do expand faster than their Power Points. I use Silvertips in my .30-30. But John's deer that I alluded to was a darn baby elk. I have never seen one that big. Not in real life, anyway. The rack was an impressive 8, but the body was HUGE.

Finished it off with my Colt Commander with Rem 185 gr +P. Just to keep us on topic. ;)

[OD*]

We'll have to start our own thread Doc, I'm a 30WCF shooter myself. ;)

[littledoc]

littledoc,

Do you know what range the three .40S&W rounds were fired from when they did not give good penetration? The 2-inch group implies they were not fired from a great distance.

I really don't know for sure what the distance was. Their were flash marks on his clothing so it was probably at contact distance. He was in his car when he got shot. Probably reached in throught the open window. I had one of the officers go out and look at his car (he drove it in). No damage to the car and he was not shot through the seat, which was my initial thought. I was very interested, especially since I had recommended the .40 to one of my co-workers. :o

It just goes to show that anything can fail. One in a million, but it can happen. An old aquaintance of mine, now departed, would tell of an NVA he kept shooting with 172gr match .30-06 and he wouldn't stay down until he hit him in the head.

Have faith in your equipment, but be aware that Mr. Murphy is still out there, and none of his laws have been repealed yet.

[littledoc]

We'll have to start our own thread Doc, I'm a 30WCF shooter myself. ;)

hooo-RAH

You would be amazed at how many people tell me that nothing less than a 7mm Rem mag is suitable for deer. I own a lot of rifles; killed more deer with a thutty-thutty than all else combined.

I've gotten a few with a 1911, even.

I miss Whitetail hunting. Since I moved to CA, all they have is these little things they call mulies. My house cat can take 'em. Real mulies are big, not like these things. They are about the size of the deer we would see in Virginia Beach or coastal NC. ;)

[scooter]

to me it still boils down to if i had a choice of a bb or a baseball to throw at the badguy.............http://forum.m1911.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Saskia Quelle]

I'd opt for the breezeblock!

http://www.pocproject.com/members/thompson/images/adam_4_small.jpg

That's what I call stopping power!

[Moose63845]

I'll post pics of the bullets my friend and I shot into his old vest on Thursday. Some I wont share since it involved the truama plate and it failed and don't want to broadcast that, granted that it had somewhat to do with the tons of rounds we had put into the vest already but still. But very interesting results.

[MontanaMike]

Interestingly, I have seen all kinds of handgun bullets "fail." The most memorable was a guy trying to rob a stop and cop. He was shot 3 times in the back with .40S&W ball. Nice group, about 2 inches. No exits. He had muzzle burns on his clothes. We got an X-ray. Sure enough, three clearly visible .40 FMJ rounds disbursed throughout his chest. They have an unmistakable profile. We were all getting prepped and having a good time when someone noticed he had zero breathing problems. We found the three bullets under the skin of his back. You could grab them with your fingers. They penetrated the skin, hit the muscle and moved all over his back. They followed the surgical plane between the skin and muscle, all in different directions. That was one lucky SOB. I sure hope he found religion.


I really don't know for sure what the distance was. Their were flash marks on his clothing so it was probably at contact distance. He was in his car when he got shot. Probably reached in throught the open window. I had one of the officers go out and look at his car (he drove it in). No damage to the car and he was not shot through the seat, which was my initial thought. I was very interested, especially since I had recommended the .40 to one of my co-workers.

It just goes to show that anything can fail. One in a million, but it can happen.

littledoc,

I agree that Murphy is sometimes an optimist, but this incident sure makes me wonder what FMJ ammo was used. Blazers? I know of one LEO incident where three rounds of .40S&W JHP were fired into COM at about 7 feet from a Glock 22. Two rounds penetrated fully through the sternum and out the back, passing entirely through the body and the other round stopped in the spine. The entrance wounds were so close together they looked like one hole and the exit wounds grouped about three inches apart, so dispersion in the body was not bad.

I'm still depending on my 1911A1's, but 40S&W is very interesting.

I think I will move on to less gory topics.

[MontanaMike]

Mike, I'm finding the .45auto penetrating better than the .40; but I used higher velocity handloads in the .45 compared to 155gr Federal Hi-Shok ammo that's issued to a large federal LE agency.

On automobile sheet metal I found 230gr XTPs at 865fps penetrated the same two layers of auto metal as the .40 did, but the XTP had a tendency to lose its jacket. I recovered a Hi-Shok round after it bounced off a third auto metal barrier and it measured .606".

Developing loads using Win 230gr notched JHP and Remington 230gr GS at 965-1006fps, 200gr Gold Dot approximately 1040+fps and 185gr GS over 1100fps gave 1/2" plus four layer penetration, something the .40 issue ammo couldn't achieve. I've since loaded up some 155gr Gold Dots that are about 140fps faster than the Hi-Shok issue ammo from a four inch barrel Steyr and will do some more barrier testing.:)

horse 91-A1:

I just got back to this thread and re-read your message above. I talked to my son about this and he verified that as a LEO, he cannot use handloads.

He further clarified his experience with .45 ACP and auto bodies. He found that unless the .45 hits part of a window mechanism, it will penetrate completely through both doors of most cars, although with little energy remaining. The LEO problem is that a lot of their shots into cars are at a quartering angle through the door posts and the normal .45 ACP loads simply won't penetrate through all the metal in the door posts whereas the 40 S&W goes right through

It sounds like increasing the velocity the way you have been doing, including using bullets less than 230 gr, has pushed the 45 ACP performance past the 40 S&W in penetrating power. When I get some time I will have to experiment with this. Have you tried your loads on the A and B posts in a car? It would be interesting to put an object inside the car to check penetration after the bullet passes through the door posts as is done in LEO trials.

Mike

[DanR]

After reading the post on this thread, I thought I would put my 2 cents worth in. I carry a 9mm, a Browning Hi-Power. While I can shoot a .45 ACP almost as well as the 9mm, I just like the 9mm better. Personal choice. As has been stated here earlier, it is rounds on target that count most so it should be our goal to be as accurate as possible. So, practice, practice, practice and practice some more. While I did work in Law Enforcement some years back, I did not meet very many "gun people" there. And now, most are "Crimanal Justice" majors from programs that rarely mention guns, if they do so at all. I also saw that most people LEOs go to the range only to quallify. I go for the fun and "burn up" several thousand rounds of various calibers each year. I would think, from reading the post on this forum, that many here can say the same thing.

Two small points. First, even if your first round completely distroys the heart of the BG, he will still have enough oxygen in his brain to continue to fight for 15+ seconds after, more than enough time to kill you. That is the reason we are told to "keep shooting until the threat is no longer a threat." Not a pleasent thought.

Second, the 16 inch guns on a battleship are call "16 inch Naval Rifles". Now, I do not believe that my CWP allows me to carry a rifle concealed, especially one that size.

[Dr. Dickie]

Second, the 16 inch guns on a battleship are call "16 inch Naval Rifles". Now, I do not believe that my CWP allows me to carry a rifle concealed, especially one that size.

I kinda think that if you could conceal it, nobody would give you a hard time about carrying it :D

[TrooperAllen469]

This I know for sure. #1 I have two 9mm scars that I am proud of. I am fortunate to have never been shot with the gun I carry, a .45acp.
#2 as far as one shot stops, I recommend the "boarding house dinner rule". When confronted, give everyone a single serving, then see who needs seconds.

[Saskia Quelle]

Just out of (morbid) curiosity, where are these two scars, Trooper?

I'm assuming it's chest. If the location is in a *dirty* place then feel free to PM :D

[TrooperAllen469]

One went through my left hand(actually, I guess that counts as two, one entry one exit). I kept all my fingers, although the feeling is grossly diminished. If I ever try to hand you anything with my left hand, don't take it....it's too hot for normal people to hold. Great prank. Number two entered just below my right collarbone and lodged underneath the scapula. No residual effects. I wish there was an interesting story, like Forrest Gumps "I got shot in the buttocks", but it's really quite droll.

[POPO22]

Littledoc:...We did some test on our handgun ammo (9mm, .40, & .45's) when I was a sniper on our dept.'s "Tac-Team". At close ranges (usually less than 12"), we fired through vehicle glass at a paper target inside the passengers compartment.

When we fired at distances less than 12" from the glass, we consistantly had rounds miss the "point of aim" and sometimes miss the human size target alltogether. When we backed away from the glass (usually more than 12" but less that 24") we found that the rounds hit their "point of aim". We did not check the depth of penetration, but most went through the seat behind the targets.

When we checked to determine why this was happening, we found that when you fire the handgun at less than (this is approximate) 12" from the glass, that the bullet did not have time to "stabilize", therefore was still "Tumbling" when it struck the glass. This apparently not only affected the accuracy, but also diminished its velocity and penetration.

Therefore, we tried to make sure that if we were performing a "vehicle assault" or something where we were required to shoot through a barrier, that we stayed back (off the glass) at least 18 to 24" to assure the rounds had time to stabilize and do its job. I'm no expert, but this may also explain why the rounds performed so poorly at the "contact distance". Rifles do not have this problem because they usually stabilize before they leave the end of the barrel, plus the higher velocities.

I've also seen instances (as a LEO) where victims were shot in the head (execution style) at "contact range", and the rounds would strike the skull and then divert and travel around (under the skin) and lodge on the other side of the skull (never penetrating the skull). I "assume" that since the rounds are "Tumbling" and never stabilize, that they are easily diverted and never gain their potential velocity.(these have been observed in most of the popular handgun calibers, not in .40 since its a relitively new round) I work in a major city dept., so this is not really an unusual occurrence with the gangs and drug wars. Since I am not an expert in "Ballistic's", much of this is speculation which is derived from observations and experience.

Good Luck ;)

[Moose63845]

POPO22, that's 12 inches right? I just want to make sure I'm reading that right.

[Tom]

POPO22, that's 12 inches right? I just want to make sure I'm reading that right.
It's like that whole Stonehenge mix-up in the movie This is Spinal Tap. It's very easy to mix up ' with "

[OD*]

the bullet did not have time to "stabilize", therefore was still "Tumbling"
Pappy,

Can you elaborate on this? Once the bullet leaves the barrel, there isn't anyway for it to re-stabilize. AFAIK, bullets don't tumble, unless there would be some kind of barrel damage, or if the bullet would strike something in flight.

[juboyiun]

Pappy,

Can you elaborate on this? Once the bullet leaves the barrel, there isn't anyway for it to re-stabilize. AFAIK, bullets don't tumble, unless there would be some kind of barrel damage, or if the bullet would strike something in flight.

I think 12" window business is a neat thing to look into, and the confusion on 'stabilization' may be just a matter of wording
This is the terminology I prefer... this is from an article 'From The High Ground' by Condor entitled 'ballistics'
I have an awesome article on 'stabilization' somewhere on my harddrive, I'll have another search. Till then:

BEGIN QUOTE
External Ballistics
After the bullet has exited the muzzle of the barrel, you're dealing with external ballistics. Now you're concerned about things like trajectory, wind drift, stabilization, "going to sleep" (the bullet, not you), deformation, firing angle, cant (not "can't" as in "I can't stand rap music" but "cant" as in whether the firearm is tilted -- at the time of firing -- to the left or to the right.
From the moment of the bullet leaving the barrel until the time the bullet impacts the target -- or anything else that stops its flight or alters it's course -- you are concerned with external ballistics.
Stabilizing the bullet is a function of velocity and the bore's rifling working together. The twist rate of the bore (1:9, for instance, meaning the bullet will complete one full turn in nine inches -- even if, as in the case of a handgun, the barrel is only seven and one-half inches long) is just a ratio, nothing more, and indicates how much distance is needed to turn the bullet one time. Combined with velocity, enough "spin" is imparted to the bullet to better enable it to "fly."
Think of "the perfect spiral" that an expertly-thrown football has once it's left the thrower's hand. Now, think of the throws you've seen where the football wobbles in flight... and ask yourself which one flies more efficiently. It's the same with bullets. Stabilization is the name of the game.
........
"Putting the bullet to sleep" refers to when the bullet actually stabilizes. If you've ever heard of someone getting "okay" groups at, say, 200 yards, and relatively "better" groups (not "worse" groups) at, say, 400 yards, the person isn't necessarily nuts... though you might think so. Some bullets, fired from some firearms, don't "go to sleep" (i.e., stabilize completely) until they've traveled a certain distance. Yes, you CAN get a larger minute of angle (MOA) group at 200 yards than you might get at 400 yards. If you fly airplanes, then you know something about pitch, yaw, and attitude (not "altitude," but "attitude" -- and I don't mean anything about the personality of your flight instructor). You can relate such things to the flight of a bullet as well... and you should.
------ (and off topic but I'll throw it in cuz lots of people have never heard of it):
Wind roll is another area that serious shooters have been giving more and more attention to in recent years. There have been some very fine articles on the subject written in the past year or so in Precision Shooting magazine. Depending on the direction of rotation of your bullet, and on the direction the crosswind is blowing, a bullet will actually climb or drop -- more -- than if there was no wind at all. Literally, it is as if the bullet is rolling "up" (or "down") on the wind. Yaw also contributes to the degree of wind roll. Makes for interesting reading.
END QUOTE

[juboyiun]

Here's the link I promised that'll make you think WAY too much.
http://www.fulton-armory.com/fly/index.htm

[DanR]

The "Yaw Graphs" for the .357 and the 9mm are very interesting. Makes on wonder what effect that has on wounds and "stopping power". Also, does a hollow point behave differently? The article does answer many questions, but like most research it also opens up many new areas for research. Thanks for posting it, juboyiun.

[Pappy]

Pappy,

Can you elaborate on this? Once the bullet leaves the barrel, there isn't anyway for it to re-stabilize. AFAIK, bullets don't tumble, unless there would be some kind of barrel damage, or if the bullet would strike something in flight.

Hi OD. You addressed me altho I didn't post anything.
I do know that a rifle bullet has some yaw or wobble after departing the muzzle and will stabilize later down range. We used to call it going to "sleep".
Benchrest shooters are aware of this phenomenon...Pappy

[POPO22]

Yes, that was 12 inches...Prior to our unit's testing, I had never heard of this type of phenomenon. Our dept.'s "Ballistic's" expert advised that when a bullet leaves the end of the barrel (especially a short barrel, less than 18 inches long according to him) it needs time to stabilize before it achieves what he termed "True Flight".

With "long-guns" (barrel's with 18 inch barrels or longer), the projectile is able to "stabilize" before leaving the end of the barrel. With shorter barrels, it needs additional distance before it achieves this smooth flight. During that time he would describe its movement as "Tumbling". This may simply be semantic's or terminology which was specific to his group, but we adopted his term.

Accordingly, if the bullet struck an object (glass, etc.) prior to "stabilization", it was more inclined to cause the projectile to divert from its original course. If the barrier was at a more pronounced angle, (not a true 90 degree angle) it would cause the projectile to deviate more, sometimes totally missing the target.

We were shown "slow motion" film's of bullets leaving the barrel of handguns and rifles, where this phenomenon was apparent.(especially from handguns)While I would not have used the term "Tunbling", it was obvious that they were not totally stable.

In any case, this information resulted in our "Tactical Team" adjusting our tactic's (primarily distance) when addressing "close quarter" assaults, where shooting through barrier's was involved. Several variables can cause differences during the flight as we all know (velocity, bullet configuration, powder load, external environmental factor's, etc.), but this seemed to drastically affect our accuracy at these close ranges, prior to the stabilization of the bullet.

As previously stated, I personally claim no expertise other than the experiences and believing what I saw. If the barrier's could cause such a deviation from the bullet's original course, (and this is primarily my own speculation) then I suspect it would also alter the bullets penetration and ability to perform as intended. ;)

Good Luck

[OD*]

Oh sorry Pappy and Pop :o

Now that makes sense to me fella's, a "tumbling" bullet would have noway to restabilize itself in flight.

[Pappy]

Oh sorry Pappy and Pop :o

Now that makes sense to me fella's, a "tumbling" bullet would have noway to restabilize itself in flight.

Probably better described as an oscillating motion around the bullet's axis. After some distance from the muzzle it "settles down"...Pappy

[POPO22]

OD,...I may be a bit off on this because its been a few years since I was an active "counter-sniper", and everything is perishable. (especially my mind, LOL)

But if I recall correctly (at least in "High Velocity" rounds like rifle's), the velocity + bullet configuration/design + proper barrel twist, all act together to stabilize the higher velocity rifle rounds during flight. If not for these proper elements, the round would never stabilize and end up possibly tumbling end over end.(which is not optimal, especially at long ranges)

My brother-in-law is a retired Marine sniper instructor, and he claims that the "Hollow-points" were actually developed to help stabilize the rounds rather than to help with bullet expansion on impact.(as is usually assumed) I can't vouch for this, but I would definitely consider him an "expert" in the "Sniper Trade". He contends that "FMJ's" lose their stability when they reach a certain velocity and that the small hole in the nose of the bullet helps it maintain its "True Flight" at these higher velocities. I do know that when a .308 round hits the skull, its not the expansion of the bullet that turns the brain to "jello", its the "shock wave" from the high velocity.(I'm sure the bullet expanding extra because of its hollow nose dosen't hurt though, sorry for the graphic illustration)

I don't think this is a factor with handgun rounds, since they typically never reach such high velocities, but rather are intended precisely to help with bullet expansion. (of course handgun rounds were never intended to hit a "man-size" target at 1000 yds. either) This is supposedly (according to some) why its important to get the bullet (in long range rifles) to stabilize before they ever leave the barrel, plus to help its control with the much higher velocities once its in flight and subject to external ballistic's. Sorry to get off the topic at hand. Good Luck ;)

[littledoc]

It makes sense. The bullet still has accelerating gasses behind it as it exits the barrel when suddenly the lateral friction is greatly reduced as it leaves the muzzle. This helps explain why "barrel harmonics" are important. Cool.

This may have been the reason for the .40 failure I mentioned earlier. However, I suspect that the guy was shot at an oblique angle and the bullets just followed the path of least resistance. We didn't try to trace the bullet path. I think the shootee would have gotten a little upset if we did. :D Besides, the night shift can be busy. Bandage him up, move him on. Bring in the next one.

Regards

[OD*]

POPO22,

Thank you, agree with Doc, that makes sense. The use of "tumbling" threw me, there wouldn't be anyway to recover stabilization if it were literally tumbling in flight.

[martin]

Another look at Miami for anyone who is interested and Newhall. This is a 35 page pdf file. Newhall starts on page 9 and Miami on page 18. On page 26 is a listing (from 2001) of the calibers used by the state police.
http://www.cji.edu/CJI/CenterInfo/lemc/papers/HankinsChris.pdf

IslandersFan - are you using 7 or 8 shot magazines for your 16" 1911? You can order a 1911 Clip Pouch from El Paso Saddlery for only $38.00!

[juboyiun]

A) But if I recall correctly .... the round would never stabilize and end up possibly tumbling end over end.(which is not optimal, especially at long ranges)
B)"Hollow-points" were actually developed to help stabilize the rounds rather than to help with bullet expansion on impact..... the small hole in the nose of the bullet helps it maintain its "True Flight" at these higher velocities.

Bang on both points, rifle-wise anyways. a)People who complain about the M-16's capabilities are perhaps familiar with what the military did taking a 'nearly unstable' :) .22 bullet that when it went terminal made a real tumbling mess :) and turned it into a 'stable' 500 yard straight shooter by altering twist rates.
b)whatever the Intention of the designers... hollowpoints do much the same thing as the vmax variety (see avatar) Biggest thing both do is shift the mass of the bullet to the rear... spinning stuff just flies better that way. If you wanna hit something small- way out there- and make a real mess outta it... try Hornady v-max. Too bad they don't come for the .45!

http://www.fulton-armory.com/fly/yawmot.gif

One question about the shooting at glass question. (perhpas this was already answered and I missed it) Was this side windows and / or windshields and / or tested with sheet metal / regular window panes? Any difference?

[POPO22]

The ones we tested our handguns on were primarily on vehicle "side windows" and "windshields". More emphasis was given to the side windows, since at these short ranges (12 to 18 inches), this was the one we would most likely be firing our handguns through.

.45 didn't fare too well through the front windshields of the newer front windshields, sometimes even glancing off and never making penetration at all. We attributed this to the lower velocities of the .45's and more angle on the glass. The test were somewhat limited, but served our purposes for practical applications.

[Al Lowe]

"Although the .45 is proven through multiple combat arenas"

I would think the 9mm calibre has just such track record in warfare.

Anyway, calibre aside, I'm on the lookout for a Smith and Wesson Model 29 in .44 magnum.
Ok, now I have to ask at least two questions here.

1. Do you STILL live in the UK?

2. IF you do, how do you plan to buy a .44 magnum, and keep it?

[juboyiun]

1. Do you STILL live in the UK?
2. IF you do, how do you plan to buy a .44 magnum, and keep it?
Good point, though I have heard very recently that the Brits feel so stupid about not being able to compete in their OWN commenwealth games that they may be slightly lifting their ban to be in line with the (almost imposed) Canadian one. ie "Target" shooter exemptions.

Everything I shoot is a 'target'. Check out that 'target' breaking into my wifes' car! Heck I just love broad definitions, don't you? :p
(Thanks popo22 for the info on the windows)

[MNeedham73]

Inadequate for what?

For a duty weapon? Yes, I think it's inadequate ... but the United States Army disagrees with me. For personal carry? I prefer the .45, but my summer "in the pocket" pistol is a Colt Pony in .380 ACP. Any gun is better than no gun.

You might be happy to know that the US Army, along with the rest of the branches, no longer disagrees :)

http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/2006251215.asp

[Hawkmoon]

"Easier to maintain ..." than a 1911?

Somebody must have smoked some bad dope ...

[MNeedham73]

"Easier to maintain ..." than a 1911?

Somebody must have smoked some bad dope ...
Yeah, there's that. I've a feeling they will end up going with H&K's

[Hunter]

"Easier to maintain ..." than a 1911?

Somebody must have smoked some bad dope ...
Hawk I thought dope was sight adjustment in relation to a target. :D

[littledoc]

"Easier to maintain ..." than a 1911?

Somebody must have smoked some bad dope ...


Gee, you didn't know that pushing a button and flipping a lever is easier than lining up the sliding thing and pushing out a thingy? ;)

No one ever asks the guys who use the stuff.

[Hunter]

Gee, you didn't know that pushing a button and flipping a lever is easier than lining up the sliding thing and pushing out a thingy? ;)

No one ever asks the guys who use the stuff.
You all are getting a little too technical for me. :D

[Saskia Quelle]

Ok, now I have to ask at least two questions here.

1. Do you STILL live in the UK?

2. IF you do, how do you plan to buy a .44 magnum, and keep it?
1. Yes.
2. Section 5 FAC. I am one of the few people in the UK who can still own handguns.

[Al Lowe]

1. Yes.
2. Section 5 FAC. I am one of the few people in the UK who can still own handguns.Ok, what is "Section 5 FAC?"

Must be nice to be one of the "few." ;)

[Saskia Quelle]

In the UK, you need to have certificates granted by your local police department in order to own a firearm.

Things like shotguns and bolt action rifles are pretty much common. If you live anywhere rural, you automatically qualify for a shotgun certificate. Anybody can apply for a section 1 fire arm certificate (FAC) which allows them to own a bolt action rifle.

Outlawed weapons--self-loading rifles (semi-automatic) and handguns--are considered section 5. Section 5 is the section for 'outlawed weapons'. If you own a section 5 FAC, such as myself, then you can legally own said outlawed weapons. Such certificates are granted by the home office (part of HM Govt.).

It is nice to be one of the 'few'. Shooting outside of farming and hunting is somewhat of an underground sport in the UK, there seems to be a social stigma around being a "gun-person" in the UK. People are all too quick to label you as a murderer or a freak for having an interest in things that go bang.

The late Malcolm Cooper, Olympic shooting champion and designer and founder of the company Accuracy International once said that he never told anybody he met that he was a shooter due to the social stigma attached to the sport. That coming from the guy that designed one of the finest percision weapon systems, that coming from the guy that was a champion world-class shooter.

From what I understand from friends who live in states like Kalifornia, it is somewhat similar with gun-friendly folk seen as social outcasts.

Just to add, firearms are actually very common in the UK. I believe Britain has the highest rate of shotgun and side-by-side rifle ownership in Europe. Most towns and cities have gun clubs, which still have rifle shooting classes for young folk.

No country compares to America with regards to freedom of gun ownership. Sure, in places like Germany you can own various types of firearms however I don't believe any country offers a "concealed carry" system where law abiding citizens can carry their guns.

Except, of course, Switzerland. Which I believe the only restriction is no carry in large cities (correct me if I'm wrong).

[Al Lowe]

In the UK, you need to have certificates granted by your local police department in order to own a firearm.

Things like shotguns and bolt action rifles are pretty much common. If you live anywhere rural, you automatically qualify for a shotgun certificate. Anybody can apply for a section 1 fire arm certificate (FAC) which allows them to own a bolt action rifle.

Outlawed weapons--self-loading rifles (semi-automatic) and handguns--are considered section 5. Section 5 is the section for 'outlawed weapons'. If you own a section 5 FAC, such as myself, then you can legally own said outlawed weapons. Such certificates are granted by the home office (part of HM Govt.).

It is nice to be one of the 'few'. Shooting outside of farming and hunting is somewhat of an underground sport in the UK, there seems to be a social stigma around being a "gun-person" in the UK. People are all too quick to label you as a murderer or a freak for having an interest in things that go bang.

The late Malcolm Cooper, Olympic shooting champion and designer and founder of the company Accuracy International once said that he never told anybody he met that he was a shooter due to the social stigma attached to the sport. That coming from the guy that designed one of the finest percision weapon systems, that coming from the guy that was a champion world-class shooter.

From what I understand from friends who live in states like Kalifornia, it is somewhat similar with gun-friendly folk seen as social outcasts.

Just to add, firearms are actually very common in the UK. I believe Britain has the highest rate of shotgun and side-by-side rifle ownership in Europe. Most towns and cities have gun clubs, which still have rifle shooting classes for young folk.

No country compares to America with regards to freedom of gun ownership. Sure, in places like Germany you can own various types of firearms however I don't believe any country offers a "concealed carry" system where law abiding citizens can carry their guns.

Except, of course, Switzerland. Which I believe the only restriction is no carry in large cities (correct me if I'm wrong).
Jeez, that sucks. I'm happy it's still possible for law-abiding subjects of the Queen to own firearms, but I'm disappointed at all the crap you have to go through.

I understand it's an expensive hobby in the UK too. I've been underemployed here in the USA for a number of years, yet I can still afford to buy a gun once in a while, and I was able to jump through all the hoops to get my Concealed Pistol License. I can't even imagine trying to enjoy shooting sports if we had laws similar to yours.

Have you ever felt like moving to a different country?

[Saskia Quelle]

Out in 'ye countryside in the UK, a good shotgun is as common as a fireplace or a dining table.

The whole shooting hobby can be very expensive in the UK. I shoot in competitions and hunt a lot, so I stick with the Lee Enfield .303 rifles. It costs me about £20 for a box of 20 .303 Federal 180gr Hi-Shock for sport/hunting. About £1/bullet (just under actually). Yet if I am buying target ammunition, it costs me about £22 for a box of 100 .303 Privi Partisan 180 Grn FMJ BT or £31/100 for mil-spec British FNM 186 Gr FMJ .303 ammunition. As far as British prices go, the above are actually fairly reasonable. That's available via my local gun shop.

I have no idea how those above prices hold up compared to American prices though.

In Britain, you have to have a "battle rifle" cartridge or larger (something like .308 Winchester, .303 British, .30-30 etc) to hunt. If you hunt with anything smaller than .270" you can face firearm charges which always result in losing your permit and weapons. So even hunting has severe restrictions on what you can and cannot use. It dosn't make much odds though, when my rifle barks, the round speaks with authority when it strikes the poor little deer in my scope.

I have felt like moving country many times, however not for a few years yet! I have always dreamed of retiring in Texas actually, somewhere rural away from the bother of city life. That'd suit me nicely!

[Pappy]

To all members in the good old U.S.A. All this a very good reason to support our NRA. They fight for us so we can enjoy the firearm freedom we have...Pappy

[DanR]

Am, and have been for many years, a life member, Pappy. Now, if we could just get the majority of hunters on board we could really change things. But some people just do not want to be bothered. Makes me sick.

[Pappy]

Am, and have been for many years, a life member, Pappy. Now, if we could just get the majority of hunters on board we could really change things. But some people just do not want to be bothered. Makes me sick.

Those hunters think they'll never come after their rifles and shotguns. Ha. Be vigiliant.
On a personal note I'd rather be a citizen than a subject.
Sorry, no more political statements...Pappy

[DanR]

Pappy, most people are just "sheeple". They just "go with the flow". You can never trust them to help you in time of need but will scream "bloody murder" if you do not help them.

Political lamp is out.